Newbies, a little something on cycling/breaking in a new reef tank.

[lcstorc]

Great information and explained very well.
Not to cloud the issue but I do want to mention the debate over LR vs Base rock. I wish I could find the old thread where it was discussed thoroughly.
There are many people that believe base rock never becomes live. I have even seen pictures (I believe from Cheeks69) of base rock that was cut open after being in the system for several years and only the very edges of the rock showed any life at all. A similar piece of LR showed growth throughout most of the rock. I think part of the issue is that people often use very dense base rock so there is little or no place for the bacteria to grow. I also think it takes quite some time for the bacteria to transfer from one to the other. For this reason I have done basically the opposite of what you do. The majority of my rock was bought as cured LR (Yeah right cured haha) and I have a small amount of base rock in the system. Maybe 80% LR and 20% base.
I don't want to confuse the issue but wanted to point out that this is a subject of debate as are many things in this hobby.

As far as the Tampa Bay rock IMO it is the best and the worst. It does have a large variety of life with little die off which is great, but it also has a lot of undesirable hitchikers. People using this rock find gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp etc for many months after the rock has been added to the system.

JMO

[DrHank]

I would think that it would be a whatever you like situation. If i were using very dense base rock, I would not expect what we consider living organisms deep within the rock. I would expect to find a large quantity of anaerobic bacteria which would now be dead because you cut the rock open and exposed them to air. In my mind, you need a mixture of porous and dense rock to achieve a good balance. why not go 60/40 LR/Base rock. You'd probably wind up with the best of both worlds. Just don't cut open the dense rock looking for living organisms. You shouldn't find them.

[prow]

Originally Posted by BarbMazz

What you replied with makes things even more clear. YOWZA!

nice, that is exactly what i was trying to do in the first post. not give a how to but to help those just getting into it, get an understanding of the "big picture" and some ways of control. that way when you start getting into discussion involving all the little "big" things- the more detailed stuff like in the second post big post- you can get your head around all the dynamics involved and "get it" also when you look into the various system (plenums, scrubbers, berlin ect....) i hope it helps mainly with future learning.

*one note on algae, it has its own cycle like bacteria and others too. NH3 has other pathways and algae eat it up like bac only diff.....just another reason to go slow with stocking levels remember some setups use mainly algae while others bacteria and so on. but in all systems there are many "cycles" going on and no matter what system your running the effect and interact with eachother. "changes in this cycle results in changes in that cycle"

Up to this point I've been planning to use LR/LS from

this is a quote off their site about the LR.

Several species of Caulerpa are found along with fleshy red and brown turf alga. Bryozoans are also common, both encrusting and bushy. Many small invertebrates such as small crabs, snails, and worms live on the rocks, including limpets and astrea snails. The list of species continues to grow with every trip. See our current catalog of organisms consisting of pictures taken by our customers.

that is enough for me to just say naaa, maybe if i could see it before i buy. but caulerpa, turf algae, bryozoans whatever crabs and stuff make it, na. thats just me though, maybe you plan on keeping things that need/like or are ok with those thing comes down to other things like what corals and stuff will be in there. just like fish compatibility, to eachother or corals or inverts or algae(if you look at it from the algaes point of view). everything else works togather or not, some macro and micro algea is compatible with some corals but not all. with corals its the same thing, some are cool with this algae growing or that fish or invert some are not. kinda why i picked a setup that did not included to much added stuff to think about. the ultimate goal keeping all those colorful corals and fishes you will learn all kinds of things along the way, this was just to get you going in the right direction. "raw/fresh" LR has lots of goodies and/or nasties to learn about, depending on the total system, fish and corals you can either set it up with that rock and add coral that fit in with what ever is growing or HH in. many will fit in. or if needed deal with whatever is in there to allow for whatever corals you like. dont go to fast in learning, best to get a good solid base and filtration is great place to start. deciding what skimmer, learning how the skimmer works and how it helps should be much easier to understand now. if/or what to put in the sump refugium and how to set that up. like increased lighting for the refugium % wise than in the main tank, that encourages algae to grow in the sump not main tank. lots to learn-its never ending. but by no means do you need to know everything inorder to have a sweet tank and enjoy everything you raised

Live Rock - Tampa Bay Saltwater Aquacultured Live Rock. I am/was (we'll see now) going to purchase "The Package" for my tank. When you have time would you please read about it? It's the reason I asked about "fresh/raw" LR.

did not get to that sec. reading about the LR was enough. but again thats just my opinion and i happen to like to keep mmmm some sensitive corals that dont like caulerpa or bryozoans things growing around/on them. some corals coiuld careless. now is a good time to get in the habbit of reseaching anything and everything you plan on putting in the tank-both live and stuff used, anything.

After reading their setup instructions, it matches up pretty well with your adding LR at the beginning that would include a lot of water changes in the beginning. TBSW says to do water changes when nitrAte goes above a certain level.

yup and as you know there is a little more to it than that to it

People have mentioned that there are unwanted HH's on this rock, but I was thinking that may be kind of cool because I've not had a marine tank before. It seems attractive because I will experience more, see more, and know more.

hehe, been there done that. and yeah its pretty cool. i still enjoy it. i only perfer to use mostly based with some LR. the whole curing process, i hate doing it. i would rather build up than clean up what can i say, i have control issues....

Anyway, I'd love your opinion on that stuff. A few members here used it and seemed to have loved it: Dentoid, Goldenmean, and I think a couple of others. Terry, maybe?

o yeah i can understand why. i would just rather use a couple peices of that rock and try to control how much of what grows-- +HH its that control issue again

I am planning on a DSB. The LS provided from TBSW is 1lb p/gallon, so I'll have 65lbs of LS from them, and planned on making up the difference with sugar-fine aragonite sand. I know now it's important to be especially patient if I want to go the way of aerobic/anaerobic bacteria biofiltration. I know I can do that because this project will not have an end; it will be a work of art in progress for as long as I care to do it.

ok first, DSB are, you guessed it, a huge topic all its own i will say a couple things here though;
1. do read up on it. hopefully you will get more out of your research now.
2. it needs the same care as LR only different what i mean is it needs special care/setup considerations and maintenance. ex. keeping creature from digging down bringing O2 in and disturbing the anaerobic zones; many use layers of screening to avoid possible compications from this. there is more, much more, like said its a huge topic.
3. the amount of sand need is not determined by lbs/gal. is based on sq.”/grian size and wt. there are calculators to use, post a new thread on DSB setups before you set up yours to get more specific info.

One question that popped in mind; How exactly does one tell that anaerobic bacteria is in fact growing and there? Is it the lack of the bothersome types of algae growth?

easy. about the algae first, you will see it grow but dont let it become too prolific and start overgrowing everywhere. shoot for no growth but dont fight some, its going to grow no matter just keep it in super check as best you can at first, later it makes life a lot easier in keeping in check. when you get a chance, lol, try look into how algae works "cycles" not sure if thats the right word.

on the anaerobic bacterial activity, at first you wll not see much of anything but after they gets going air bubbles will start to come from the rock and sand bed. these are nirtogen gas bubbles that harmlessly float up and out into the atmosphere . remember anaerobic bac eatup NO3 and turn it into a nitrogenous gases, no worries though, those harmlessly floating up and out into atmosphere bubbles may seem like they will never end, but once the anaerobics establish the bubble production will slow to the point where the N gets reabsorbed to levels that you will not see anymore bubbles

HEY CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!! you just avoided the headache of looking for a air leak or messing with your skimmer and pumps because your getting all these micro bubbles form somewhere. you know now the likely cause of these in a few months for ref. this part, i know its a little tech, its in the dissimilation part of that link-the denitrification process of how anaerobics break down NO3. -that link goes into part of the nitrogen cycle many dont, just knowing that you one up one most, you deserve a little something for that

--here is a link that lists and gives a brief discription of a couple different setups-it might start to become to a little clearer on how they work and what the goals are of each one. Silent revolution | Practical Fishkeeping magazine

Thanks again SO much. You're GRAPE (great. my daughter says grape & i love that!) for taking the time to post this. I'm sure you have no idea how timely this is! If you were here I'd give you a hug for REAL.

P.S. feel free to post any questions here, i dont want to make you think its a bother or anything like at all. i will do my best to give my thoughts on whatever and love reefing so its all good, but you might want to post questions on stuff like setting up a DSB on a thread of its own. there are a lot of good people and knowlegable reefers here that i am sure will have good input/ideas for ya. i will look out for any postings of course just might be able to go more indepth on this or that subject. now that you have a idea (or will have after digesting all this stuff) of how the dynamics work you can learn more, and more importantly comprehend what your learning. you know so we can make better/more informed choices in providing the best envirornment for your fishes/corals ect...

[prow]

Originally Posted by DrHank

I would think that it would be a whatever you like situation. If i were using very dense base rock, I would not expect what we consider living organisms deep within the rock. I would expect to find a large quantity of anaerobic bacteria which would now be dead because you cut the rock open and exposed them to air. In my mind, you need a mixture of porous and dense rock to achieve a good balance. why not go 60/40 LR/Base rock. You'd probably wind up with the best of both worlds. Just don't cut open the dense rock looking for living organisms. You shouldn't find them.

i agree with everything but the mixture of dense rock to porous rock.(of course i dont view "base" rock as being any more or less porous the "LR")IMO, because our tanks lack surface area for anaerobic growth anyway (one ex. is sand bed size, our tanks are limited and can not produce the % of anaerobic zones seen the oceans sand beds, the depth and size of the oceans sand beds scaled down to our tanks would be need to be much bigger and deeper then we are willing to put in) the more porous the all rock is the better. JMO

Originally Posted by lcstorc

Great information and explained very well.
Not to cloud the issue but I do want to mention the debate over LR vs Base rock. I wish I could find the old thread where it was discussed thoroughly.
There are many people that believe base rock never becomes live. I have even seen pictures (I believe from Cheeks69) of base rock that was cut open after being in the system for several years and only the very edges of the rock showed any life at all. A similar piece of LR showed growth throughout most of the rock. I think part of the issue is that people often use very dense base rock so there is little or no place for the bacteria to grow. I also think it takes quite some time for the bacteria to transfer from one to the other. For this reason I have done basically the opposite of what you do. The majority of my rock was bought as cured LR (Yeah right cured haha) and I have a small amount of base rock in the system. Maybe 80% LR and 20% base.
I don't want to confuse the issue but wanted to point out that this is a subject of debate as are many things in this hobby.

mmmm, ok i have not read that and i dont want to belittle anyone or flame anything up or anything like that but thats ridiculous (hope that not to hard of a word, dont mean in a bad way). if you take a peice of LR out of the ocean, put it under a microscope do a bacterial count/algae analysis ect..then soak that rock in bleach, killing all the life on/in it-dechlorinate it, making it base rock and then put it back, wait a good long time come back and do the same checks under the microscope you will see bac and algae populations similar to what is was there prior to bleaching.

now the quality of the rock(in terms of its density/porousnessis) and how much surface area that provides is what determines the bacterial growths(along with foods and water parameters, competition from algae and what not "had to add that for newbies" ). that and the make up of the rock its self. with aragonite-based rock, which is what most of the rock we use is made of, the anaerobic baceterial zones actually dissolve the aragonite, seen in DSB aswell. so bacertia in this case create their own room. there are issues with this and limits but thats for a sand bed/rock kinda thread. i guess here too, i am cool with it and this thread is in the in depth area.

As far as the Tampa Bay rock IMO it is the best and the worst. It does have a large variety of life with little die off which is great, but it also has a lot of undesirable hitchikers. People using this rock find gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp etc for many months after the rock has been added to the system.

i share your same opinion, it could be the best or the worst. the important thing is to understand whats meant by good and bad-best or worst. or better said what you like and will fit in well together, o and how much effort your willing to go to care for whatever.

[BarbMazz]

Good morning, Prow, and thanks again, because each time you add a bit more detail the picture becomes not quite so hazy.

I was doing some reading on "biotope" setups. And I think that's kinda what you're saying; a good way to set up a viable reef is to pick a piece of reef in the ocean, and aim for what is living together in that piece of reef. Fish, corals, plants, inverts, etc.

After reading that piece I thought it made tons of sense; what goes together in nature will have a better chance of going together in a closed reef system.

I thought about what creatures have struck me the most in my research, and the answer is clams. I'm also struck by host relationships; anemones and clowns, for example, or certain shrimps and anemones/fish. And, if possible in the future I would like to have a mandarin dragonet. So, reading more, I kind of zeroed in on a shallow reef clam tank.

So, I have the big picture of what I'd like to create, and I will begin to work my way down to the finer details to learn what all lives in that environment, how they mesh, and why they mesh. Now, I'll study from the perspective of the creature I'd like to raise. I'll be an algae, a shrimp, a coral, a fish, a clam and look around to see who I'd like for neighbors, and why I'd like them. Kinda zen! I now know to look into what sorts of nutrients each creature requires and how that fits into the bigger "cycle" picture. I see how "cycle" may not be the best descriptor, and I see how there are many cycles going on at once, at all different rates, and that different balances need to be monitored so that one won't take over too much.

It turns out my question about anaerobic bacteria was the jackpot question, because as soon as you mentioned the nitrogen gas bubbles in the sand bed, that first nitrogen cycle article you linked to went BAM! in my mind. Oh, much clearer now! LOL And, really the epiphany for me, here, is to look at things from the creature's point of view, not mine.

I will do as you suggest and start a discussion about DSBs, because I don't understand them at all, probably! I am going to have a sump tank with refugium, and I have seen that the fuge can be used as the DSB rather than the display tank.

Thanks again for your guidance, and you can bet that I'll be asking you further questions. I kinda feel like I'm back in school, and it's really good to be using the ole noggin again for something less mundane than usual!

It must be in serendipitous for me to study more before I begin to set up, because the LFS has said my tank is still not in, and they're hoping for next Friday. The delay also provides practice in patience!

[DrHank]

To me, that's the wonder of the hobby. You are always learning something. After reading prows last comment and giving it some thought, I agree with him that ratio of denser to more porous rock really probably doesn't make that much difference. No matter how much dense rock you use, it would never come close to the effectiveness of the oceans natural sand beds. Also, if we tried to get a deep enough sand bed to replicate the ocean, we wouldn't have room for very much water.

I guess my point is that no matter how hard I try, I'll never come close to providing the ecological balance that mother nature provides.

As far as cycling a tank is concerned, It would probably be better to think of it as the Ammonia to free Nitrogen gas cycle that occurs in your tank. Another way to look at it is the establishment of essential bacteria in your tank. That is what you're really trying to do. You must establish sufficient colonies of beneficial bacteria in your tank before other life forms can survive or thrive.

[prow]

Originally Posted by BarbMazz

Good morning, Prow, and thanks again, because each time you add a bit more detail the picture becomes not quite so hazy.

I was doing some reading on "biotope" setups. And I think that's kinda what you're saying; a good way to set up a viable reef is to pick a piece of reef in the ocean, and aim for what is living together in that piece of reef. Fish, corals, plants, inverts, etc.

After reading that piece I thought it made tons of sense; what goes together in nature will have a better chance of going together in a closed reef system.

I thought about what creatures have struck me the most in my research, and the answer is clams. I'm also struck by host relationships; anemones and clowns, for example, or certain shrimps and anemones/fish. And, if possible in the future I would like to have a mandarin dragonet. So, reading more, I kind of zeroed in on a shallow reef clam tank.

So, I have the big picture of what I'd like to create, and I will begin to work my way down to the finer details to learn what all lives in that environment, how they mesh, and why they mesh. Now, I'll study from the perspective of the creature I'd like to raise. I'll be an algae, a shrimp, a coral, a fish, a clam and look around to see who I'd like for neighbors, and why I'd like them. Kinda zen! I now know to look into what sorts of nutrients each creature requires and how that fits into the bigger "cycle" picture. I see how "cycle" may not be the best descriptor, and I see how there are many cycles going on at once, at all different rates, and that different balances need to be monitored so that one won't take over too much.

It turns out my question about anaerobic bacteria was the jackpot question, because as soon as you mentioned the nitrogen gas bubbles in the sand bed, that first nitrogen cycle article you linked to went BAM! in my mind. Oh, much clearer now! LOL And, really the epiphany for me, here, is to look at things from the creature's point of view, not mine.

I will do as you suggest and start a discussion about DSBs, because I don't understand them at all, probably! I am going to have a sump tank with refugium, and I have seen that the fuge can be used as the DSB rather than the display tank.

Thanks again for your guidance, and you can bet that I'll be asking you further questions. I kinda feel like I'm back in school, and it's really good to be using the ole noggin again for something less mundane than usual!

It must be in serendipitous for me to study more before I begin to set up, because the LFS has said my tank is still not in, and they're hoping for next Friday. The delay also provides practice in patience!

thats so assume, you nailed it

like DrDank says

Originally Posted by DrHank

If it helps even one person, it was well worth your time

and you BarbMazz, made it, very much, well worth my time

[prow]

"He who sees things grow from their beginnings shall have the finest view of them"...Aristotle........

and i totally agree with DrHanks last post. we try and we try but we just can not get "ecological balance that mother nature provides"

buts it sure is fun trying learning and watching the fruits of our labor, ahhh you got love it ~i have yet to see a reef i could not enjoy watching

[mps9506]

Moved to Just starting out and stickied.

[JoJo]

I haven't learned so much since.....well, we wont go there but I really enjoyed learning so much from this thread. It was very clear to me how the nitrogen cycle works plus the sandbed was a plus. PROW, you're a genius buddy.

[Lindita68]

Thanks for the valuable information!

[prow]

[bluespotjawfish]

TBR in my opinion is a ton of work. The good that I have left is this gorgeous orange sponge that is now over 5" across. All my other good is gone, some intentially because it became competitive with other desirables, some not so intentially (tank just couldn't support it's needs). One of the BAD is this evil crab (it was not alone). I find a new BAD something each month nearly a year later. I still hear "pop pop pop" from something.

[BarbMazz]

I have started looking into uncured LR. I've seen some really neat 'scapes done with the branching LR, and I want some shelves. If and when I pick up my tank next weekend I'm going to talk with them about what they can get.

It's not like I'm hurrying along or anything LOL.. what's another few weeks while rock is curing?

I think I may want to get different types of rock from different areas. It does lend to more bio-diversity using different types, right?

[prow]

bluespotjawfish, ahhh that pop pop naaa its not is it, naaa

BarbMazz, look through my chronicle all that rock was very much dead, all but one 2lb piece, when i started my tank up