Questions.

Something Fishy · 01-11-2004, 06:30 PM

Ok two weeks into the cycle. Ammonia has dropped and nitrites are starting to.

How many fish to add when we do start adding( Prolly two weeks still)? I was thinking one maybe two, 55 gallon tank.

The LFS has some pretty good deals on feather dusters, turbo snails, and blue legged hermits. Can any of those be added before the cycle ends? Is it recommended?

Side note: We got the new stand built, tank is on it. Should have some picutres in a few days.

Thanks for the help,
Rusty

Maxx · 01-11-2004, 07:37 PM

I would go w/ the hermits, and hold off on all others. Feather dusters are on the delicate side when it comes to water quality...not real good at handling high levels of nitrite or ammonia. You wont have algae yet, (no nitrates to use as a food source) so the snails would starve. I'm also not a big fan of the turbos since the two I have are clumsy and have knocked over corals on several occaissions. Just my opinion.
Adding one or two fish is okay. Make sure to keep them smaller and easily cared for, meaning dont go for a gorgeous 12 inch adult imperator (Emperor) angel.
Things to remember....
The bacteria in your tank at the end of the cycle is only enough to maintain the life you will have in the tank at that time. When you add a new fish, the bacteria levels will rise to compensate since they will have more nutireints/more food to allow the (bacteria) population level to rise. But its not an instantaneous thing. It takes a while and until you get a better handle on how all this works and get a better feel for how to watch for signs of distress in your tank, most people reccommend adding no more than one or two fish a month in order to allow bacteria levels to adjust properly. If you add too many fish at once, the bacteria population wont be able to grow fast enough to keep up w/ your increased bioload and ammonia levels will increase faster than the bacteria can process it. This gets you right back to the problem you had earlier...dead fish.
Also.... keep in mind that there are many fish that are beautiful, but can be aggressive or territorial after they get aclimated to your tank. These fish need to be added later or last so as not to disrupt the tank. Think territorial dispute.
If you'd been living your house for a year and you came home and some new guy was in your bedroom...you'd be pretty upset. But if you and this new guy moved in together from the get go...no issues....same principle. There are ways to get around this. And we will all be happy to help you w/ that.
What you need to do now is decide what you want to keep in this tank. I cant remember the size of it...(for some reason I'm thinking either 29 gallon or 55 gallon...dunno why) which will affect the amount of fish, and the type of fish you can keep in it.
Do you want a fish only tank....this allows you a little more leeway and is cheaper to start with, easier too in my opinion.
What kind of fish do you want to keep? Many people have a fish that is their own personal Holy Grail...the one that got them into marine aquariums to begin with. If you have one of those, research it. Find out everything you can about this fish. What does it eat? What type of water quality does it need? Does it require alot of swimming space? Will it get very big? Does it not play well w/ others? Etc....
When you have a better mental picture of what you want this tank to look like and what you want to keep in it, we'll have an easier time answering your questions.
I don't know if anyone has reccomended any books to you or not....But two really good ones to start w/ are:
"The Concientious Marine Aquarist", by Robert Fenner,
and "Natural Reef Aquariums", by John Tullock. Both are published by TFH.
Read everything you can about marine aquariums....and then read some more.
Sorry for the long post...these are all things I wish some one had told me before I got started. It would have saved me time, money, and frustation.
Good luck,
Nick

Something Fishy · 01-11-2004, 07:46 PM

Thanks for the lengthy reply, there more info the better.

We have two tanks, 55 and 20. The 20 gallon is more the wifes. She wants domino damsels and other small fish.

In the 55 we are going to start FOWLR then maybe move to to other life. That is awhile down the road after I learn how to run a good tank.

I think that we would like to start out with some clowns, maybe. What are good fish to start out with? Clowns depending on the type are mostly calm fish, right? I like the Lawn Mower Bleeny, but I haven't read much about them. There is still alot to investigate. I know that I need to stay away from yellow tangs and other large fish due to the size of the tank.

Thanks for all your help once again,
Rusty

Maxx · 01-11-2004, 08:00 PM

Rusty,
Clowns were one of the fish I wa initially thinking of, but they arent as hardy as some of the others fish that many people start out with. Nothing wrong with that, just ensure your tank is finished cycling before you add them. Keep in mind many clowns can get aggressive as they get older. The bigger clowns are more prone to this than the Occelaris clowns. Many stores will label Occelaris clowns as percula clowns, but they are in all likelyhood Occelaris. Clowns are damsel fish, so they can get territorial, keep that in mind. Its usually not to the same extent that damsels get though.
I would also stay away from the lawnmower blenny. Very finicky eater. I havent been able to keep one alive yet. Curtswearing has one but even he doesnt reccomend them to beginners.
Clowns, Royal grammas, certain wrasses etc would be fine for your tank. Anything labeled as "reef safe" by people you trust, will be a good candidate for your tank in terms of not being aggressive. The feeding requirements you may not be able to handle, but at least they wont be aggressive. Two fish I love, but are aggressive tank fish only, are triggers and the harlequin tusk fish/wrasse. Triggers are neat, but can really get aggressive, (Niger, and pink tailed triggers would be the two I reccomend in terms of least likely to eat everything else in your tank.) but have awesome personality. Same w/ Harlequins. Both of those fish types would be fine in a 55 (they get bigger but would still fit fine) but they eat crustaceans...so no shrimp or crabs in the tank, unless its food. Ive seen em eat cleaner shrimp too...so nothing is guarenteed. If you decide to go the trigger/ more aggressive wrasse route, eels are a good companion too.
All things to think about. Do you have those books or has anyone mentioned 'em to you? If not go get em @ amazon. I think you can order them thru RS here, but not sure just yet. The cool thing to doing that is that it shows amazon how many people frequent RS.....just a thought...
Good luck,
Nick

Something Fishy · 01-11-2004, 08:19 PM

I don't have the books, yet. There is one at my library, gonna check it out before I buy. Bad habit checking books out before I buy them. The Barnes and Noble in town doesn't carry them in stock so I can't see them before I buy. So library is next best thing.

Thanks for the pointers,
Rusty

Maxx · 01-11-2004, 08:38 PM

No prob...I had to learn somehow...and its cheaper to let others (me) make the mistakes for you.
Nick

Something Fishy · 01-11-2004, 08:39 PM

Wanna buy stuff for me too? That would be cheaper, for me...

Maxx · 01-11-2004, 08:40 PM

Lol......ummm no.
Nick

Craig Manoukian · 01-11-2004, 11:45 PM

Great info Maxx! Thanks for getting SF on the right track.

SF,

I have a 20 gallon mini reef. There is about 35 lbs of live rock and 4" of live sand. I run an Aqua Clear 200 filter and a Seaclone 100 skimmer. In addition, I have 110 watts of 10,000K Power Compact lighting, or over 5 watts per gallon. I change 2.5 gallons of water weekly.

It has a Blue Damsel and a Blue/Green Chromis as well as Scarlet Herimts, Limpets, and Snails. I also have some plolyps, Zoanthus, Xenias, and believe it ot not a Green Bubble Tipped Anenome. All of these critters are thriving. 20 gallons will only accomodate 2 or 3 small fish in my humble opinion. It is a 20 gallon long, 30", which is still not much lateral swim room.

Hope this gives you some ideas and it should be noted that this has taken me over a year to get this 20 gallon set-up proerly. Go slow and let it growm. The moe biological and mechanical filtration the happier your critters will be.

Be sure to look at the mature or maximum tank size of your fish as both of your tanks have limited lateral swim room. The Flasher Wrasses, Genus Paracheilinus, offer great fish in the 3 - 5" range for your 55 gallon.

wooddood · 01-12-2004, 08:45 AM

great info nick good job.

Curtswearing · 01-12-2004, 08:56 AM

Excellent post Maxx!!!

I'm glad your stand is built. I'm looking forward to the pic's. I would like to add my comments to this thread.......my comments are, "Yeah, what Maxx said".

wooddood · 01-12-2004, 09:06 AM

ditto what curt said.lol,lol.

Scooterman · 01-12-2004, 10:50 AM

Ok yea what they said!

ReefLady · 01-12-2004, 10:52 AM

Nick,

Great post(s). Karma to ya!

BoomerD · 01-12-2004, 11:05 AM

A lot of really good info has been posted here. One thing no one has mentioned is the Domino damsels for your wife's 20 gallon tank. These buggers really get nasty as they get bigger! And big they get. From Bob Fenner's WetWebMedia:
"Dascyllus trimaculatus (Ruppell 1829), the Three-Spot Damsel or Domino. Indo-west Pacific. To five and a half inches in length. Lives on coral and rocky reefs.... and so feisty, it bites the hands of the aquarists who feed it."
Not likely you'll be able to keep anything else in a tank with 2 of these, and they will out grow the 20 gallon fairly quickly.

01-11-2004, 06:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
Something Fishy Limpet Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Springfield, Mo Posts: 125 View Gallery Karma Komment	Questions. Ok two weeks into the cycle. Ammonia has dropped and nitrites are starting to. How many fish to add when we do start adding( Prolly two weeks still)? I was thinking one maybe two, 55 gallon tank. The LFS has some pretty good deals on feather dusters, turbo snails, and blue legged hermits. Can any of those be added before the cycle ends? Is it recommended? Side note: We got the new stand built, tank is on it. Should have some picutres in a few days. Thanks for the help, Rusty

01-11-2004, 07:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,080 View Gallery Karma Komment	I would go w/ the hermits, and hold off on all others. Feather dusters are on the delicate side when it comes to water quality...not real good at handling high levels of nitrite or ammonia. You wont have algae yet, (no nitrates to use as a food source) so the snails would starve. I'm also not a big fan of the turbos since the two I have are clumsy and have knocked over corals on several occaissions. Just my opinion. Adding one or two fish is okay. Make sure to keep them smaller and easily cared for, meaning dont go for a gorgeous 12 inch adult imperator (Emperor) angel. Things to remember.... The bacteria in your tank at the end of the cycle is only enough to maintain the life you will have in the tank at that time. When you add a new fish, the bacteria levels will rise to compensate since they will have more nutireints/more food to allow the (bacteria) population level to rise. But its not an instantaneous thing. It takes a while and until you get a better handle on how all this works and get a better feel for how to watch for signs of distress in your tank, most people reccommend adding no more than one or two fish a month in order to allow bacteria levels to adjust properly. If you add too many fish at once, the bacteria population wont be able to grow fast enough to keep up w/ your increased bioload and ammonia levels will increase faster than the bacteria can process it. This gets you right back to the problem you had earlier...dead fish. Also.... keep in mind that there are many fish that are beautiful, but can be aggressive or territorial after they get aclimated to your tank. These fish need to be added later or last so as not to disrupt the tank. Think territorial dispute. If you'd been living your house for a year and you came home and some new guy was in your bedroom...you'd be pretty upset. But if you and this new guy moved in together from the get go...no issues....same principle. There are ways to get around this. And we will all be happy to help you w/ that. What you need to do now is decide what you want to keep in this tank. I cant remember the size of it...(for some reason I'm thinking either 29 gallon or 55 gallon...dunno why) which will affect the amount of fish, and the type of fish you can keep in it. Do you want a fish only tank....this allows you a little more leeway and is cheaper to start with, easier too in my opinion. What kind of fish do you want to keep? Many people have a fish that is their own personal Holy Grail...the one that got them into marine aquariums to begin with. If you have one of those, research it. Find out everything you can about this fish. What does it eat? What type of water quality does it need? Does it require alot of swimming space? Will it get very big? Does it not play well w/ others? Etc.... When you have a better mental picture of what you want this tank to look like and what you want to keep in it, we'll have an easier time answering your questions. I don't know if anyone has reccomended any books to you or not....But two really good ones to start w/ are: "The Concientious Marine Aquarist", by Robert Fenner, and "Natural Reef Aquariums", by John Tullock. Both are published by TFH. Read everything you can about marine aquariums....and then read some more. Sorry for the long post...these are all things I wish some one had told me before I got started. It would have saved me time, money, and frustation. Good luck, Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!) Last edited by Maxx : 01-11-2004 at 07:41 PM.

01-11-2004, 08:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,080 View Gallery Karma Komment	Rusty, Clowns were one of the fish I wa initially thinking of, but they arent as hardy as some of the others fish that many people start out with. Nothing wrong with that, just ensure your tank is finished cycling before you add them. Keep in mind many clowns can get aggressive as they get older. The bigger clowns are more prone to this than the Occelaris clowns. Many stores will label Occelaris clowns as percula clowns, but they are in all likelyhood Occelaris. Clowns are damsel fish, so they can get territorial, keep that in mind. Its usually not to the same extent that damsels get though. I would also stay away from the lawnmower blenny. Very finicky eater. I havent been able to keep one alive yet. Curtswearing has one but even he doesnt reccomend them to beginners. Clowns, Royal grammas, certain wrasses etc would be fine for your tank. Anything labeled as "reef safe" by people you trust, will be a good candidate for your tank in terms of not being aggressive. The feeding requirements you may not be able to handle, but at least they wont be aggressive. Two fish I love, but are aggressive tank fish only, are triggers and the harlequin tusk fish/wrasse. Triggers are neat, but can really get aggressive, (Niger, and pink tailed triggers would be the two I reccomend in terms of least likely to eat everything else in your tank.) but have awesome personality. Same w/ Harlequins. Both of those fish types would be fine in a 55 (they get bigger but would still fit fine) but they eat crustaceans...so no shrimp or crabs in the tank, unless its food. Ive seen em eat cleaner shrimp too...so nothing is guarenteed. If you decide to go the trigger/ more aggressive wrasse route, eels are a good companion too. All things to think about. Do you have those books or has anyone mentioned 'em to you? If not go get em @ amazon. I think you can order them thru RS here, but not sure just yet. The cool thing to doing that is that it shows amazon how many people frequent RS.....just a thought... Good luck, Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!) Last edited by Maxx : 01-11-2004 at 08:02 PM.

01-11-2004, 08:38 PM	#6 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,080 View Gallery Karma Komment	No prob...I had to learn somehow...and its cheaper to let others (me) make the mistakes for you. Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

01-11-2004, 08:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,080 View Gallery Karma Komment	Lol......ummm no. Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

01-11-2004, 07:46 PM	#3 (permalink)
Something Fishy Limpet Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Springfield, Mo Posts: 125 View Gallery Karma Komment	Thanks for the lengthy reply, there more info the better. We have two tanks, 55 and 20. The 20 gallon is more the wifes. She wants domino damsels and other small fish. In the 55 we are going to start FOWLR then maybe move to to other life. That is awhile down the road after I learn how to run a good tank. I think that we would like to start out with some clowns, maybe. What are good fish to start out with? Clowns depending on the type are mostly calm fish, right? I like the Lawn Mower Bleeny, but I haven't read much about them. There is still alot to investigate. I know that I need to stay away from yellow tangs and other large fish due to the size of the tank. Thanks for all your help once again, Rusty

01-11-2004, 08:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
Something Fishy Limpet Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Springfield, Mo Posts: 125 View Gallery Karma Komment	I don't have the books, yet. There is one at my library, gonna check it out before I buy. Bad habit checking books out before I buy them. The Barnes and Noble in town doesn't carry them in stock so I can't see them before I buy. So library is next best thing. Thanks for the pointers, Rusty

01-11-2004, 08:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
Something Fishy Limpet Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Springfield, Mo Posts: 125 View Gallery Karma Komment	Wanna buy stuff for me too? That would be cheaper, for me...

01-11-2004, 11:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
Craig Manoukian Regular Guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marina Del Ray, CA Posts: 19,012 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Great info Maxx! Thanks for getting SF on the right track. SF, I have a 20 gallon mini reef. There is about 35 lbs of live rock and 4" of live sand. I run an Aqua Clear 200 filter and a Seaclone 100 skimmer. In addition, I have 110 watts of 10,000K Power Compact lighting, or over 5 watts per gallon. I change 2.5 gallons of water weekly. It has a Blue Damsel and a Blue/Green Chromis as well as Scarlet Herimts, Limpets, and Snails. I also have some plolyps, Zoanthus, Xenias, and believe it ot not a Green Bubble Tipped Anenome. All of these critters are thriving. 20 gallons will only accomodate 2 or 3 small fish in my humble opinion. It is a 20 gallon long, 30", which is still not much lateral swim room. Hope this gives you some ideas and it should be noted that this has taken me over a year to get this 20 gallon set-up proerly. Go slow and let it growm. The moe biological and mechanical filtration the happier your critters will be. Be sure to look at the mature or maximum tank size of your fish as both of your tanks have limited lateral swim room. The Flasher Wrasses, Genus Paracheilinus, offer great fish in the 3 - 5" range for your 55 gallon. __________________ Currently tankless. 20 Gallon mini reef with mated pair of Maroon Clowns given to Rougiem! 80 gallon reef given to Rougiem/Wooster HS.

01-12-2004, 08:45 AM	#10 (permalink)
wooddood the wood dude Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: marion. INDIANA Posts: 3,457 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	great info nick good job. __________________ 120 gal/in wall tank/starboard substraight/2 250 watt 10k xm metal halides/ 4 55watt 03 actinics/150lbs lr/scwd on return/scwd on a closed loop/aquaclear aquatics 200 pro wetdry w/skimmer. ask all the questions you have if we cant answer it we'll make up some thing. remember patience is the key to a kick ass reef. dave.

01-12-2004, 08:56 AM	#11 (permalink)
Curtswearing Golden Moray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,597 View Gallery Karma Komment	Excellent post Maxx!!! I'm glad your stand is built. I'm looking forward to the pic's. I would like to add my comments to this thread.......my comments are, "Yeah, what Maxx said". __________________ In memory of Fluffy, please pause before hitting enter---being nice is free. Click for ReefKeeping FAQ'S Click for Product Reviews Click for Photo ID Gallery http://curtcpapfs.com/downloads/1Curt.jpg

01-12-2004, 09:06 AM	#12 (permalink)
wooddood the wood dude Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: marion. INDIANA Posts: 3,457 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	ditto what curt said.lol,lol. __________________ 120 gal/in wall tank/starboard substraight/2 250 watt 10k xm metal halides/ 4 55watt 03 actinics/150lbs lr/scwd on return/scwd on a closed loop/aquaclear aquatics 200 pro wetdry w/skimmer. ask all the questions you have if we cant answer it we'll make up some thing. remember patience is the key to a kick ass reef. dave.

01-12-2004, 10:50 AM	#13 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,239 View Gallery Karma Komment	Ok yea what they said! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

01-12-2004, 10:52 AM	#14 (permalink)
ReefLady Tridacna maxima Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 4,590 View Gallery Karma Komment	Nick, Great post(s). Karma to ya! __________________ ~ Teri -------- "You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice." ~(currently tankless)~ Our 180g sps tank / DIY adventure (taken down in late 2006): Our 180g DIY Reef Project ---What's next????

01-12-2004, 11:05 AM	#15 (permalink)
BoomerD Reef Shark Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Northern California Posts: 5,638 View Gallery Karma Komment	A lot of really good info has been posted here. One thing no one has mentioned is the Domino damsels for your wife's 20 gallon tank. These buggers really get nasty as they get bigger! And big they get. From Bob Fenner's WetWebMedia: "Dascyllus trimaculatus (Ruppell 1829), the Three-Spot Damsel or Domino. Indo-west Pacific. To five and a half inches in length. Lives on coral and rocky reefs.... and so feisty, it bites the hands of the aquarists who feed it." Not likely you'll be able to keep anything else in a tank with 2 of these, and they will out grow the 20 gallon fairly quickly.

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