Berlin Method Plans

newsalt · 01-01-2004, 11:06 PM

Right now I have a 15 gallon high tank. It is FOWLR. This is my first SW tank. If all goes well, I plan on moving up to a 30 gallon. If I go to 30g I wanted a good HOB Power Filter. However, after reading responses from a previous post, I started to look into the Berlin Method of filtration. I developed the sketch which is attached on how I was planning to do it. Any thoughts on my ideas? My main question when you look at my sketch is this:

Do you thing the powerhead in the the aquarium that's rated for 295 gph will be powerful enough to bring water from the aquarium through the skimmer into the sump (or filter box) and back into the aquarium and provide enough movement in the aquarium?

Also, how big and what brand air pump would you recommend?

I'm open to thoughts on what I'm planning on doing. If there are links you could point me to that would be great too?

Thanks.

Travis · 01-01-2004, 11:32 PM

Not sure about the hang-on sump's benefits other than holding a heater if it's only the size of an old HOB filter.

Check out the CPR aquafuge hang-on refugium, I have the 24" model on my 46 bow and love it. Holds the heater, DSB, some live rock, and lots of macroalgae, plus all the cool fuge critters.

I'm not that good at plumbing/DIY so I'll leave that to people with more knowledge.

Travis

Pro_builder · 01-01-2004, 11:52 PM

well I have a few questions.
1: what power head are you wanting to run.
2: most powerheads have to be completely submerged while running.
3: most powerheads won't push water very high, with any efficency.
4: How high are you wanting to push the water?
5: Do you have a basic drawing of your complete setup?
This would help us out a lil more on what you need for a plumbing setup.
HTH

wooddood · 01-02-2004, 06:25 AM

taggin along,i agree with troy on the powerheads.

newsalt · 01-02-2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

1: what power head are you wanting to run.

Maxi-Jet 1200. That's what is used on my Auto Top-off system and it pushes water up approx. 4 feet. without a problem.

Quote:

2: most powerheads have to be completely submerged while running.

I was going to submerge it in the aquarium (even though my sketch doesn't show that properly) unless I found one that didn't need to be submerged. I was hoping to get suggestions for the powerhead type from this post.

Quote:

How high are you wanting to push the water?

I'm guessing maybe 2.5 feet.

Quote:

Do you have a basic drawing of your complete setup?

Right now I don't have anything more than the sketch I posted.

JennM · 01-02-2004, 08:35 AM

If you're pumping up, I'd get a proper pump, like a Mag-drive. You will want to turn your water over 10 times per hour.

If you're doing a Berlin system, you don't have to make it as complicated as all that. You can move water, and skim, all with powerheads and HOB skimmer... more water volume is better, but you've really gone from one extreme to another since the power filter thread... something tells me that you didn't *read* my reply about that... of course in the sea of conflicting information, it's easy to get lost

We did our 55, Berlin style with a kick-butt handmade skimmer, made for a 250-g tank, and about 800 gph in circulating powerheads. We did have a drip tray and sump built in to our tank at one end (it was partitioned off), so we could do mechanical/chemical filtration from time to time - and it is a good idea to have some sort of mechanical/chemical filter *available* should you need it.

Jenn

newsalt · 01-02-2004, 10:06 AM

Quote:

If you're doing a Berlin system, you don't have to make it as complicated as all that. You can move water, and skim, all with powerheads and HOB skimmer... more water volume is better, but you've really gone from one extreme to another since the power filter thread... something tells me that you didn't *read* my reply about that... of course in the sea of conflicting information, it's easy to get lost

I didn't think it was complicated. Again, I'm new at this and want to do the right thing. Can you tell me what in my sketch makes it complicated? What would you do? I did read your response to my other thread and you wrote there that a power filter is a good idea because "you have more options open - to simply use it to recirculate water, to use it as biological filtration or not, to use it as mechanical filtration or not, and to use it as chemical filtration or not."

If I did go with the Marineland (Emperor) would I still use it as a traditional HOB filter by using it's own lift tube and have the skimmer water output go back into the tank? Or would you do what I've shown in my sketch which is not using the Emperor's lift tube and dump the skimmer water output into Emperor and then have that spill back into the tank?

Please give me your thoughts. I'm getting a bit confused now.

JennM · 01-03-2004, 09:14 PM

For a 30 (or really anything 55 g and under) I'd do this...

HOB power filter (I like Emperors.. 280 for 30g or less, 400 for larger). Decent HOB skimmer, like a CPR BakPak or an Aqua C Remora. No air pumps, no HOB sump. You *could* do a HOB refugium if you wanted (CPR Aquafuge etc.) if you have the room, but when you get that involved, you might as well spend all that money on a bigger system that you won't outgrow so fast. Maybe a powerhead or two if needed, depending on the volume of live rock... if more live rock, I'd use the powerheads, if less, perhaps not - would play it by ear to see just how much movement there was in the tank.

If you are worried about the rhetoric about bio-wheels "producing" nitrate (they don't actually manufacture the nitrate, they just don't break the nitrate down to nitrogen) you can run the power filter without the bio wheel. I run carbon/filter pads all the time in HOB power filters - they polish the water and keep it from getting yellow.

If you're going with a larger than 55 g tank, I'd go reef-ready with as big a sump as you can fit, perhaps a refugium, and definitely a good skimmer. I like Kent's Nautilus series.

Jenn

newsalt · 01-04-2004, 12:56 PM

Would run the Emporer as you traditionally would run an HOB, using its own intake tube that's supplied with it and have the HOB skimmer outlet spill back into the tank?

JennM · 01-04-2004, 07:45 PM

I'd run the HOB filter, and the HOB skimmer as they were made - no modifications. If you get a decent filter (Emperor, for example) and a decent skimmer (CPR BakPak for example), you can just put them on the tank, add your LR/LS (or bare bottom if you so desire) and let 'er rip.

Depending on the amount of rock you may wish to add a powerhead or two for more circulation, but that's it.

Jenn

01-01-2004, 11:06 PM	#1 (permalink)
newsalt Torch coral Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 578 View Gallery Karma Komment	Berlin Method Plans Right now I have a 15 gallon high tank. It is FOWLR. This is my first SW tank. If all goes well, I plan on moving up to a 30 gallon. If I go to 30g I wanted a good HOB Power Filter. However, after reading responses from a previous post, I started to look into the Berlin Method of filtration. I developed the sketch which is attached on how I was planning to do it. Any thoughts on my ideas? My main question when you look at my sketch is this: Do you thing the powerhead in the the aquarium that's rated for 295 gph will be powerful enough to bring water from the aquarium through the skimmer into the sump (or filter box) and back into the aquarium and provide enough movement in the aquarium? Also, how big and what brand air pump would you recommend? I'm open to thoughts on what I'm planning on doing. If there are links you could point me to that would be great too? Thanks.

01-01-2004, 11:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
Travis Smilie Bartender Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 6,657 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Not sure about the hang-on sump's benefits other than holding a heater if it's only the size of an old HOB filter. Check out the CPR aquafuge hang-on refugium, I have the 24" model on my 46 bow and love it. Holds the heater, DSB, some live rock, and lots of macroalgae, plus all the cool fuge critters. I'm not that good at plumbing/DIY so I'll leave that to people with more knowledge. Travis __________________ Help build the Encyclopedia of ReefKeeping Find over 1400 Reef Aquarium Articles at The Reef Aquarium Index

01-01-2004, 11:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Pro_builder DIY Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Oxford, Iowa Posts: 1,746 View Gallery Karma Komment	well I have a few questions. 1: what power head are you wanting to run. 2: most powerheads have to be completely submerged while running. 3: most powerheads won't push water very high, with any efficency. 4: How high are you wanting to push the water? 5: Do you have a basic drawing of your complete setup? This would help us out a lil more on what you need for a plumbing setup. HTH __________________ -Troy 180 gallon Reef, 3- 250 XM 15K MH Electronic ballast, 380 watts VHO Actinics, 2- 5 watt LED Moon lights, 100 gal rubbermaid sump, 75 gallon Fuge, ETSS 600 Skimmer, 4700-5400 gph pump for return, Octopus 3000 controller, Iwaki 40 RL skimmer pump, 2- 65w PC 10K fuge lights, 2 55 gallon barrels, Custom light oak stand and hood, misc pumps, extra 600 gallon rated tank size protein skimmer. Purple tang, yellow tang, pacific blue tang, 2 green chromis, 1 Sand sifting star, snails, hermit crabs, 2 mated perculas, pulsing Xenia, Anenome, mushrooms, ricordia, zoanthids, kenya tree 1 1/2" tall, misc other hitchhiker stuff. DIY is my dream... ...well OK the only way I can afford this Addiction!! Just as the light goes on in my head... ... I break the bulb!!

01-02-2004, 06:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
wooddood the wood dude Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: CARMEL. INDIANA Posts: 3,450 View Gallery Karma Komment	taggin along,i agree with troy on the powerheads. __________________ 120 gal/in wall tank/starboard substraight/2 250 watt 10k xm metal halides/ 4 55watt 03 actinics/150lbs lr/scwd on return/scwd on a closed loop/aquaclear aquatics 200 pro wetdry w/skimmer. ask all the questions you have if we cant answer it we'll make up some thing. remember patience is the key to a kick ass reef. dave.

01-02-2004, 08:35 AM	#6 (permalink)
JennM Bryozoan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Canton, GA Posts: 49 View Gallery Karma Komment	If you're pumping up, I'd get a proper pump, like a Mag-drive. You will want to turn your water over 10 times per hour. If you're doing a Berlin system, you don't have to make it as complicated as all that. You can move water, and skim, all with powerheads and HOB skimmer... more water volume is better, but you've really gone from one extreme to another since the power filter thread... something tells me that you didn't read my reply about that... of course in the sea of conflicting information, it's easy to get lost We did our 55, Berlin style with a kick-butt handmade skimmer, made for a 250-g tank, and about 800 gph in circulating powerheads. We did have a drip tray and sump built in to our tank at one end (it was partitioned off), so we could do mechanical/chemical filtration from time to time - and it is a good idea to have some sort of mechanical/chemical filter available should you need it. Jenn __________________ JennM Owner:Imagine Ocean

01-03-2004, 09:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
JennM Bryozoan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Canton, GA Posts: 49 View Gallery Karma Komment	For a 30 (or really anything 55 g and under) I'd do this... HOB power filter (I like Emperors.. 280 for 30g or less, 400 for larger). Decent HOB skimmer, like a CPR BakPak or an Aqua C Remora. No air pumps, no HOB sump. You could do a HOB refugium if you wanted (CPR Aquafuge etc.) if you have the room, but when you get that involved, you might as well spend all that money on a bigger system that you won't outgrow so fast. Maybe a powerhead or two if needed, depending on the volume of live rock... if more live rock, I'd use the powerheads, if less, perhaps not - would play it by ear to see just how much movement there was in the tank. If you are worried about the rhetoric about bio-wheels "producing" nitrate (they don't actually manufacture the nitrate, they just don't break the nitrate down to nitrogen) you can run the power filter without the bio wheel. I run carbon/filter pads all the time in HOB power filters - they polish the water and keep it from getting yellow. If you're going with a larger than 55 g tank, I'd go reef-ready with as big a sump as you can fit, perhaps a refugium, and definitely a good skimmer. I like Kent's Nautilus series. Jenn __________________ JennM Owner:Imagine Ocean

01-04-2004, 12:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
newsalt Torch coral Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 578 View Gallery Karma Komment	Would run the Emporer as you traditionally would run an HOB, using its own intake tube that's supplied with it and have the HOB skimmer outlet spill back into the tank?

01-04-2004, 07:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
JennM Bryozoan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Canton, GA Posts: 49 View Gallery Karma Komment	I'd run the HOB filter, and the HOB skimmer as they were made - no modifications. If you get a decent filter (Emperor, for example) and a decent skimmer (CPR BakPak for example), you can just put them on the tank, add your LR/LS (or bare bottom if you so desire) and let 'er rip. Depending on the amount of rock you may wish to add a powerhead or two for more circulation, but that's it. Jenn __________________ JennM Owner:Imagine Ocean

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