Old Tank Syndrome

[Paul B]

I posted this on another forum and I thought it would be interesting to put it here

My theory of Old Tank Syndrome is two fold.
First off I think that if you are running a DSB you will experience a problem before ten years. But that is a standing debate and can not be confirmed until there are more ten year old DSBs running with no problems. My other theory is the fact that few people add new bacteria from the sea.
I do this all the time, every week in the summer.
It is my theory (and I am sure only mine) that in time the meager strains of bacteria you have in your tank from your LFS will become stagnant and not work for us as well as they should. We tend to think of bacteria as three types but these three types encompass thousands of kinds in each type and the strain you have in your tank may not be the best for our needs.
Your LFS where you aquired your fish from most likely uses ASW and all of his bacteria came from his wholesaler's tanks which are copper treated and over crowded.
I believe my tank would not have lasted as long as it did (38 years)without new influx of bacteria from the sea.
I sometimes put mud from the sea bed in a dish and put it in my tank. In a few days I remove the dish with the mud as I only want the bacteria.
My nitrates are zero and I run a RUGF.
I am far from meticulous with maintenance and only change water 4 or 5 times a year. My tank is also overcrowded due to breeding experiments.
I can only attribute it to new bacteria.
I may be wrong in my assumptions but I can't think of any other reason.

[BigJay]

I can understand what your saying about introducing new strains of bacteria but since bacteria constantly mulitply I am not sure why they would just stop working. As long as the substances they feed upon are available your bacteria should be constantly renewing itself.
There are definite arguments for systematic replacement of the DSB however.

[Frankie]

Darn, your tank is as old as me
I have to agree fully with you on the bacteria issue Paul. It is one of the main reasons that I am changing over to Zeovit. The continued additions of bacteria.
About the DSB though, in your opinion how deep is a DSB? There have been many debates over just how deep the sand needs to be to be considered DSB.

[BigJay]

Originally Posted by Paul B

It is my theory (and I am sure only mine) that in time the meager strains of bacteria you have in your tank from your LFS will become stagnant and not work for us as well as they should.

could you both eleborate on that?

[Boomer]

What is this "Old Tank Syndrome" day This is the second forum with this title. I just saw this on another forum I was looking at the other day but do not remember where it was.

Oh, it is real for sure. It is just that even now such so called "wipe-outs" or "old tank syndrome", we've never had anyone that had the means to detect in the water what caused the deaths, although at times it is ammonia through the roof, more than likely from a complete shut-down of nitrifying bacteria but no means to ID why they shut-down. At other times all water parameters we hobbyists can test for are more or less normal. So all we can say it is some unknown toxin. Martin Moe had something on this line years ago and unexplained as to what was the culprit when raising juv clown fish. IIRC, it was raised juv's would fall off like fly's in the same water as wild clowns, even when both were sperated in difffent tanks and runing on sperate filter systems. If he did a WC all was Ok with both. His theory was a bacteria releasing a toxin in the water the raised clowns just were not adapted to.

Mike gives a review of ...........

The "Old Tank" Syndrome
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: The "Old Tank" Syndrome

[Paul B]

Hello there Boomer. Long time, no see.

BigJay, I diden't say the bacteria stop multiplying, I said they are not diverse.
Bacteria occupy all surfaces in a tank but not all bacteria will help us out. Many of them do not turn nitrates into nitrate gas or turn ammonia into nitrite.
We have bacterin in our guts that turn sugar into methane, not really good for our purposes.
I think we need an influx of different strains of bacteria.
This can not be tested for by the average hobbiest.
Don't forget. This is my theory and by no means proven by anyone.
It is not Gospel, just a theory.,

[Witfull]

old tank syndrome and old reefer^^^^


wassup boomer? that was a good article.

[Witfull]

Paul, do you worry about introduction of pathogens from the mud?

when i think of OTS, i think it can be a combination of factors, one factor just happens to be the trigger.

[Paul B]

Paul, do you worry about introduction of pathogens from the mud?

No since I also use NSW from the same place it would be a moot point worring about pathigens. If they diden't get sick in 40 years, they ain't getting sick now.
Maybe the bacteria keeps the paracites away.
I don't know, could happen

[Witfull]

another good theory~

i forget who told me this analogy, but it went something like this. a reef tank is like rasing a child in a bathroom. at first its big and clean, but with time it gets smaller and and smaller. everything outgrows a confined environment. expand or die.

[BigJay]

I think I understand what your saying now about constantly inocculating with new bacteria. If a bacteria is introduced but not needed it will die off but it maybe needed at some point and is no longer available so if you constantly expose different strains they can be used as needed.
The bacteria that may not be beneficial to the tank may occupy the space in the tank of the beneficial bacterias either choking them out or not giving them the real estate to expand and keep up with demand.
Please clarify this if I don't quite have a grasp on the concept.

[BigJay]

bump

[Paul B]

BigJay, I just came back and collected a few vials of mud from about 10' deep.
I think in time the bacteria that is the strongest or most virulent will occupy all available spaces. These bacteria may not be the best bacteria for our purposes. If you have an enclosed garden with a bunch of ants in there. In time, the ants which are the strongest will eventually occupy all the spaces either killing or eating the other types. These more prevelent types may be fire ants, army ants, leaf eater ants, whatever, but one type will eventually take over. It is the same with bacteria. We need diversity.
The sea is full of many different types of bacteria which will never be able to out compets all the others because of different salinities, temperatures etc, but in a tank which is all the same envirnment, one type of bacteria will prevail.
Again, just my theory as I am not the God of bacteria

[BigJay]

in theory it sounds feasible.

[rmlevasseur]

I would think that the strain that survived would become super-efficient at life in our tanks, not die out because of it. (assuming there are strains of something like nitrosomonas, I just don't know)

My guess is that old tank syndrome is nothing more than phosphate build up and overload.