Hlle

Paul B · 04-22-2008, 12:44 PM

Hlle

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HLLE or Head and lateral line erosion or as we often call it "hole in the head disease" is just about the only aquarium malady that we can't yet cure or even know the cause.
I know what is not the cause because I have been experimenting on it for many years and I know all of the things that do not cause it.
Steven Pro hit it on the head when he said that it is caused by captivity
Marine Head & Lateral Line Erosion: A Description of the Syndrome and a Review of its Speculated Causes by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

Wild fish supposedly are not prone to HLLE and I must say in 40 years of diving I have never seen it on a fish in the sea.
It is not caused by a lack of vitamin A (which I thought was one cause) it is not a lack of vitamin C (another thing I thought it was) or stray currents (another possability but doubtful), stress (this is blamed for everything)
A bacterial or viral infection has not been determined. But this malady affects a large majority of fish mostly tangs but many fish species can be affected. It is not fatal but sometimes the fish looks so bad you would wish it would die.
Also some tanks seem not to be at risk. I know that if I keep a hippo or yellow tang for a few years it starts to develop HLLE.
It could just be a small spot for years then it slowly spreads.
The hippo I have now is just missing a small patch of skin on his head, a positive precurser to the "disease" (if it is a disease)
I have been experimenting for three months by giving this fish large amounts of calcium, Vitamin A, C, and D.
The spot is still there but the fish is very noticably brighter. His blue is very blue and the black is very black. But the experiment is a failure because I know this fish will still get HLLE.
I have had dozens of Hippo's and they usually live over ten years but if I remember, they all got HLLE eventually.
I am going to keep giving those vitamins just because of the improved color but I still need to know before I croak what in captivity causes this ugly disease.
Paul

rlcline76 · 04-22-2008, 12:53 PM

That "stress" term is all encompassing! I remember the article without having to review it. I also recall Pro going through many of the possibilities and I am guessing you have ruled all of those out, as well, accept for maybe the possibilty of a virus.

Sorry to hear about your fish.

Paul B · 04-22-2008, 03:44 PM

Rlcline, yes I have rulled all of them out but of course it could be a combination of some or all of them. My hippo just has a little of it and I don't worry about it. It just bothers me that in 40 years of salt water fish keeping we have not figured it out yet.

Frankie · 04-22-2008, 04:26 PM

We cured an Oscar with Hlle with liquid band aid I and a friend when they first came out with the product. I believe it was early 90's. He also tried this on his more delicate Discus but that fished died. I don't think it was from the covering of the holes though. that fish was well on it's way out. I never had Hlle with a salt water fish but if i did i would try it. Better then loosing the fish.
The reason we tried to cover the holes was because even with all the "supposed" meds for this might have been working, the bacteria in a closed system were infecting the cavities. I know that it went away on that Oscar with very little scare tissue.
Liquid bandage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dentoid · 04-22-2008, 04:50 PM

Great post Paul! Have you considered writing a book on your experiences in this hobby?

Paul B · 04-22-2008, 06:01 PM

I could put this picture from the seventees on the cover

Dentoid · 04-22-2008, 08:10 PM

I'd suggest saving that one for the back cover!

boozeman · 04-22-2008, 08:19 PM

Neil Diamond - at Madison Square Garden

nikkipigtails · 04-22-2008, 08:29 PM

how are you dosing the vitamins?

bluespotjawfish · 04-22-2008, 09:12 PM

Oh my, I love the photo!

Following this thread...

tbittner · 04-22-2008, 10:47 PM

Our LFS, Marine Scene, rescued some purple tangs with HLLE. I don't know what they were treating them with, probably nothing because they were in the coral for sale tanks, but they must have been giving them something because after about 6 months they had it cleared up. Unless it wasn't HLLE but it sure looked like it. They had it bad too.

Frankie · 04-22-2008, 11:43 PM

LOL Robert!
Thats a great picture Paul! Thats about the time I was winning my first gold fish at the Nassau County fair!

rlcline76 · 04-22-2008, 11:46 PM

I don't even know if I was born yet...I'll have to dig through the photos when I get back to my parents' house...start that 70s thread in OT!

Paul B · 04-23-2008, 05:53 AM

Good thing I diden't post a picture from the sixtees. I don't think I had a camera to take pictures of my tank in the fiftees.
As for the vitamins, I soak flakes in fish oil. For the vitamin C and calcium I crush those pills and mix them with the oil. Flakes absorb it well and the hippo eats most of it. His skin looks like velvet but I think the oil is making him too fat. It is just an experiment and I would not recommend feeding this to a fish yet.

rlcline76 · 04-23-2008, 11:28 AM

Too fat?
I was reading a study from 2006 based on Acanthuridae diets in the wild versus their diets in captivity. Stating that surgeonfish tend to be too lean in captivity and fatter in the wild based on a diet that we have not been able to sufficiently mimic. I am wondering, since you are a diver, if you would be able to compare the appearance of your fish to those you have encountered on dives.
How long have you been using fish oil?

04-22-2008, 12:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Paul B Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 251 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Hlle Hlle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HLLE or Head and lateral line erosion or as we often call it "hole in the head disease" is just about the only aquarium malady that we can't yet cure or even know the cause. I know what is not the cause because I have been experimenting on it for many years and I know all of the things that do not cause it. Steven Pro hit it on the head when he said that it is caused by captivity Marine Head & Lateral Line Erosion: A Description of the Syndrome and a Review of its Speculated Causes by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com Wild fish supposedly are not prone to HLLE and I must say in 40 years of diving I have never seen it on a fish in the sea. It is not caused by a lack of vitamin A (which I thought was one cause) it is not a lack of vitamin C (another thing I thought it was) or stray currents (another possability but doubtful), stress (this is blamed for everything) A bacterial or viral infection has not been determined. But this malady affects a large majority of fish mostly tangs but many fish species can be affected. It is not fatal but sometimes the fish looks so bad you would wish it would die. Also some tanks seem not to be at risk. I know that if I keep a hippo or yellow tang for a few years it starts to develop HLLE. It could just be a small spot for years then it slowly spreads. The hippo I have now is just missing a small patch of skin on his head, a positive precurser to the "disease" (if it is a disease) I have been experimenting for three months by giving this fish large amounts of calcium, Vitamin A, C, and D. The spot is still there but the fish is very noticably brighter. His blue is very blue and the black is very black. But the experiment is a failure because I know this fish will still get HLLE. I have had dozens of Hippo's and they usually live over ten years but if I remember, they all got HLLE eventually. I am going to keep giving those vitamins just because of the improved color but I still need to know before I croak what in captivity causes this ugly disease. Paul

04-22-2008, 12:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
rlcline76 Acropora Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Posts: 1,972 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle That "stress" term is all encompassing! I remember the article without having to review it. I also recall Pro going through many of the possibilities and I am guessing you have ruled all of those out, as well, accept for maybe the possibilty of a virus. Sorry to hear about your fish. __________________ ~Becky~ I think everything ALWAYS comes back to underwear sooner or later. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to conjecture. BarbMazz Any weather is thong weather. BEELZEBOB When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed. Say something once, why say it again? Talking Heads

04-22-2008, 03:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
Paul B Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 251 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle Rlcline, yes I have rulled all of them out but of course it could be a combination of some or all of them. My hippo just has a little of it and I don't worry about it. It just bothers me that in 40 years of salt water fish keeping we have not figured it out yet.

04-22-2008, 04:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
Frankie Angel Girl's Daddy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The End Of The World Posts: 6,035 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle We cured an Oscar with Hlle with liquid band aid I and a friend when they first came out with the product. I believe it was early 90's. He also tried this on his more delicate Discus but that fished died. I don't think it was from the covering of the holes though. that fish was well on it's way out. I never had Hlle with a salt water fish but if i did i would try it. Better then loosing the fish. The reason we tried to cover the holes was because even with all the "supposed" meds for this might have been working, the bacteria in a closed system were infecting the cavities. I know that it went away on that Oscar with very little scare tissue. Liquid bandage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia __________________ Visit my aquarium -->Frankie's 120 gal Experiment Bruce: Today's meeting is Step 5: Bring a fish friend. Everyone brought a fish friend? DIY=DO IT YOURSELF! If we ignore the environment maybe it will go away....

04-22-2008, 04:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
Dentoid Over Achiever Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,592 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Hlle Great post Paul! Have you considered writing a book on your experiences in this hobby? __________________ Scott Dentoid's Reeforama

04-22-2008, 06:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Paul B Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 251 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle I could put this picture from the seventees on the cover

04-22-2008, 08:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
Dentoid Over Achiever Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,592 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Hlle I'd suggest saving that one for the back cover! __________________ Scott Dentoid's Reeforama

04-22-2008, 08:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
nikkipigtails Elegance coral Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hillbilly Hell, AL Posts: 1,110 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle how are you dosing the vitamins? __________________ Our 180 Gallon Family Project

04-22-2008, 09:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
bluespotjawfish Manta Ray Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 3,839 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Hlle Oh my, I love the photo! Following this thread... __________________ Lorraine To BB and all Bluespots - Journey of the 2nd Year ...The 2nd Year - Photoshow Check out Mr. BJ and friends... Mr. BJ's Aquarium - PhotoShow

04-22-2008, 10:47 PM	#11 (permalink)
tbittner Watch this Ma! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern VA Posts: 5,081 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle Our LFS, Marine Scene, rescued some purple tangs with HLLE. I don't know what they were treating them with, probably nothing because they were in the coral for sale tanks, but they must have been giving them something because after about 6 months they had it cleared up. Unless it wasn't HLLE but it sure looked like it. They had it bad too. __________________ Terry My chronicle 120g with 300g sump/refug, Outer Orbit HQI/T5HO 24-Hour Light System: : 48" 250W HQI 4x54W Lots of fish. 150g predator tank full of killers. 450g tank is IN the HOUSE!

04-22-2008, 11:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
Frankie Angel Girl's Daddy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The End Of The World Posts: 6,035 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle LOL Robert! Thats a great picture Paul! Thats about the time I was winning my first gold fish at the Nassau County fair! __________________ Visit my aquarium -->Frankie's 120 gal Experiment Bruce: Today's meeting is Step 5: Bring a fish friend. Everyone brought a fish friend? DIY=DO IT YOURSELF! If we ignore the environment maybe it will go away....

04-22-2008, 11:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
rlcline76 Acropora Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Posts: 1,972 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle I don't even know if I was born yet...I'll have to dig through the photos when I get back to my parents' house...start that 70s thread in OT! __________________ ~Becky~ I think everything ALWAYS comes back to underwear sooner or later. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to conjecture. BarbMazz Any weather is thong weather. BEELZEBOB When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed. Say something once, why say it again? Talking Heads

04-23-2008, 05:53 AM	#14 (permalink)
Paul B Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 251 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle Good thing I diden't post a picture from the sixtees. I don't think I had a camera to take pictures of my tank in the fiftees. As for the vitamins, I soak flakes in fish oil. For the vitamin C and calcium I crush those pills and mix them with the oil. Flakes absorb it well and the hippo eats most of it. His skin looks like velvet but I think the oil is making him too fat. It is just an experiment and I would not recommend feeding this to a fish yet.

04-23-2008, 11:28 AM	#15 (permalink)
rlcline76 Acropora Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Posts: 1,972 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Hlle Too fat? I was reading a study from 2006 based on Acanthuridae diets in the wild versus their diets in captivity. Stating that surgeonfish tend to be too lean in captivity and fatter in the wild based on a diet that we have not been able to sufficiently mimic. I am wondering, since you are a diver, if you would be able to compare the appearance of your fish to those you have encountered on dives. How long have you been using fish oil? __________________ ~Becky~ I think everything ALWAYS comes back to underwear sooner or later. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to conjecture. BarbMazz Any weather is thong weather. BEELZEBOB When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed. Say something once, why say it again? Talking Heads

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