Liverock Stocking levels

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by prow

i know were your going with this. i would have to say enough average rock to add up to about double the fishes body mass should be good. i have keep a fish in QT before for around 5 months with minimal water changes. the only other thing i had was some caulerpa growing on the rock, so i dont know if that counts but still i go with double the mass of rock to fish. not looking at lbs here just mass.

Well, fish are easy. what about corals?

[cheeks69]

I never liked this rule and never really followed it. I think there's alot of negatives by keeping a large amount of rock in the tank like poor flow, detritus accumulation within the rocks, lack of swimming space etc.

I have about 65 lbs. of LR in my 93 gal tank and 15 lbs. in my 21 gallon sump and still think it's too much especially as the SPS corals continue to grow. I do have a DSB so I have plenty of surface area for aerobic/anaerobic bacteria. This of course will be different if you have a SSB or BB tank, you'd need considerably more rock but nowhere near the amount usually recomended especially if it's the porous Indo-Pacific rock.

[AdvanceAquatics]

LOL...Interesting and everone had a great point, but allow me to further the thought yet deeper. The thought is complex due to the amount of Gals and what you actually are keeping. The Doc is right with the Rock differances, so that makes it more complex. But Yet in life the answer is almost always very simple we just asume its complex and over look the simple.

I really agree with Doc...it all depends on you your aquatic life and the enviorment you creat for them.

[mps9506]

So do you think the more porous varieties of rock contain more or less anaerobic bacteria, or which is more effective at denitrification.

[prow]

one more big wrench to toss in. there are marine bacteria that have been found that are capable of both anaerobic and aerobic resp. not only that but they are able to perform anaerobic respriations in a aerobic environment. meaning it does both nitrification and denitrification. even at the same time

corals not so dependant on rock. more of what is in the water column.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by prow

corals not so dependant on rock. more of what is in the water column.

The are dependent on the water quality that the rock can help promote, and I would suspect the microfauna on and around the rock.

[cheeks69]

Originally Posted by prow

one more big wrench to toss in. there are marine bacteria that have been found that are capable of both anaerobic and aerobic resp. not only that but they are able to perform anaerobic respriations in a aerobic environment. meaning it does both nitrification and denitrification. even at the same time

corals not so dependant on rock. more of what is in the water column.

I had an on-line conversation with Dr Timothy Hovenac and he mentioned that the marine/reef type environment isn't conducive to these type of bacteria.

[boozeman]

I think that where many beginners have a pitfall is in stocking, say a 50 gal. tank, full of rock and then adding fish as if it were still a 50 gal. tank when in reality it may have only 30 gal. of water volume.
So, always remember to take into account the volume of water displaced by your rock when it comes time to add the fish !

[sasquatch]

OK, so how much rock does Witt have compared to concrete block?

[prow]

Originally Posted by boozeman

I think that where many beginners have a pitfall is in stocking, say a 50 gal. tank, full of rock and then adding fish as if it were still a 50 gal. tank when in reality it may have only 30 gal. of water volume.
So, always remember to take into account the volume of water displaced by your rock when it comes time to add the fish !

good point boozeman, very ture.

Originally Posted by mps9506

The are dependent on the water quality that the rock can help promote, and I would suspect the microfauna on and around the rock.

yeah but funa in time can grow on the glass. then there is what type coral branching or encrusting. i dont think there is really anyway to find what would support a individual. i have seen some nanos with about 3lbs of rock with 5-6 corals. these tanks did have a sandbed though. without to many sand preditors a healthy sand could do much more for the corals than LR. alfter all sand is not really sand, it tiny peices of LR, for the most part. and yeah fish are easy but corals you have think more, much more. LPS,SPS, ect.. then various needs with in each group talk about getting a brain cramp,

Originally Posted by cheeks69

I had an on-line conversation with Dr Timothy Hovenac and he mentioned that the marine/reef type environment isn't conducive to these type of bacteria.

perhaps Dr. Timothy Hovenac is not aware. there are many that have been used for years in septic tanks and other commercial things, but not used in saltwater. these guys that i am refering to are a fairly new find. only the past five years or so. here is a link, http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/54/6/2307.pdf these guys actually need a environment of NaCl. if you read the abstract you can see they were collected off the coral reefs of nanwan bay. water parameters of 3% NaCl, ph 8 and temp of 30 C. typical reef conditions over there. they came from reefs.
that link is a study on the bacteria strains of pseudovibrio sp. there have been others found also, like aerogenes sp., that have similar capabilities, also found in sea waters, but if i remember right they were found in sea grass areas (lagoons), not sure on that though. i think mainstream thinking is still in "the sea is flat" thinking mode. if that makes sense?

i use to have more links to studies but dont where they are. somewhere on my computer, i wish i could remember what i named the folders.

[cheeks69]

perhaps Dr. Timothy Hovenac is not aware

This is his field of expertise.


I don't doubt nor him that these bacteria exist in many environments BUT for them to multiply to the level of providing aerobic denitrification they would need a food source. For example many people believed that the bacteria that did the majority of the nitrifying/denitrifying work in aquariums was Nitrosomonas europaea (AOB) and/or Nitrobacter winogradskyii (NOB) and to this day it's sold in the hobby to reduce the cycling time but Dr Timothy proved that it wasn't these bacteria at all.

Dr.Timothy Hovenac:

They do not work in the aquarium environment because they prefer environments that have higher concentrations of ammonia (or nitrite). I can give you some references to scientific paper should you want to read about this more. If you add a commercial mix with a large amount of N. europaea or Nb. winogradskyii you might see ammonia (or nitrite) oxidation for a few days but once the bacteria die back you will see the ammonia (or nitrite) concentrations in the water increase....
...Yes exactly - not all bacteria will live in a SW tank and just because you add a bacteria does not mean it will live and multiple.

[prow]

yes those are different though. nitrobacteriaceae perfer waters with temps of 28C and ph ranges of 7.6-7.8, not typical of reef tanks and they use. vibrionaceae type like reef tank levels and grow with or without oxygen. nitor's use different methods for growth and are not photosynthetic were as some vibrionaceae are. there very different.

[cheeks69]

Originally Posted by prow

yes those are different though. nitrobacteriaceae perfer waters with temps of 28C and ph ranges of 7.6-7.8, not typical of reef tanks and they use. vibrionaceae type like reef tank levels and grow with or without oxygen. nitor's use different methods for growth and are not photosynthetic were as some vibrionaceae are. there very different.

Well 28 C is around 82 F which is quite common in reef tanks and my tank for most of the winter hovered around a ph of 7.8 and it's not uncommon for those that use a CR to hover around this range of ph so the perfect environment IMHO, the question is food source.

[mps9506]

cheeks,
do we have a link on any info (studies?) on the bacteria common in reef aquariums and maybe what kind of abundance they are in the aquarium in relation to available energy sources?
Mike

[cheeks69]

Originally Posted by mps9506

cheeks,
do we have a link on any info (studies?) on the bacteria common in reef aquariums and maybe what kind of abundance they are in the aquarium in relation to available energy sources?
Mike

Mike I did have a link to Dr. Hovenac's info on bacteria unfortunately I can't find it. I looked thru his articles in Marinland's website but it isn't there.