HOB filters a notrate factory????

jcoopergd · 04-06-2005, 12:46 AM

I was following on another forum, and someone mentioned that HOB filters are nitrate factories.....

I run a 40 gal sumpless, and have a aquaclear 500, and an aquaclear 350 running off the back. I have 65+pds of LR, and also a remora pro w/ mag 3.....In the HOB's, i run phosban, polyfilter, chemi-pure (in one), crushed branch LR in the bottom, covered by the included sponge.

I have a reoccuring cynao problem that is in a lull right now, and now i am starting to think maybe it could be related????

i also think flow is a prob, as i have no other PH's....but everything in the tank is thriving, and multipling like crazy -

is my filtration sufficent? would the reoccurning red slime have something to do with it? also, i clean the sponges in the HOB's when i do water changes (5 gal EOW) and i clean them in the tank water i take out.

stock list below:
(i know, slightly over stocked)

livestock:
flame angle
2 firefish
purple firefish
mandrian goby
pink stripped goby
diamond goby
baby blue tang (i know tang police...but bigger tank is just around the corner)
2 black percula clowns
crabs/snails/ normal cleanup crew (though they are getting big!)
Cleaner shrimp
peppermint shrimp

coral:
green open brain
silver pulsing xenia
green tipped torch
green ricordia
green star poylps
brown frogspawn
yellow sun coral
orange sun coral
deresa clam
discoma neglegta (dont know the common name - but its a biiig mushroom)
yellow poylps
candy cane
7 or 8 asst. zoo colonies
clove
tree coral
red/green mushrooms
stripped mushroom
feather duster
red linka
red knobbed star
red mushrooms
stripper brittle star

lighting: 192 wts PC

readings:
ph - 8.3
SG 1.025
Ammonia:0
Trites:0
Trates:0 (before skimmer added 10)

Travis · 04-06-2005, 01:01 AM

Anything with a sponge would optimally be rinsed every other day. That may help.

How old is your actinic bulb? Bad actinics have caused me cyano problems in the past.

Woodstock · 04-06-2005, 09:55 AM

Keep in mind that diterus is the solid form of yuckies

You need to remove the diterus before it begins to disolve back into the water column. Skimming and siphoning are your allies in the battle. Sponges (or anything that traps diterus) on the other hand can be friend or foe depending on how often you clean them. As Travis mentioned, clean them often. It is also a good idea to rinse other media (carbon,etc) in the old tank water when doing water changes to remove trapped diterus. Keep the rocks blown off too... I am always amazed at how much diterus accumulates on them!

mojoreef · 04-06-2005, 10:12 AM

What ends up happening is that with the mix of highly oxygenated water flowing through your sponges in the filter is that it creates an enviroment for the growth of nitrifing bacteria. These bacteria will convert ammonia down to nitrate but no further. So as mentioned above clean them every other day or just remove them all together.
On the cyano, it needs a certain enviroment in which to thrive. The fat you are producing nitrates is probibly feeding them (trates can be their but being used up as quickly as they are made and thus undectectable). It also like lower flow and has an afinity for light spectrum in the red zone (which can happen as lighting gets older).

I would remove the sponge and check flow for any dead spots. The corals you have in your tank also love nutrients, that is why they are growing so well, you just need to find the sweet spot where they get what they want but also where thier is not excess for the cyano.

good luck

Mike

KimPossible · 04-06-2005, 10:19 AM

Coop - My first plan of attack would be to increase the flow. What's holding you back? From reading previous posts from you, your doing everything (except this). What about Travis' ??? on the lights?

jcoopergd · 04-06-2005, 02:20 PM

Flow - im pretty sure that would solve the cynao problem - but i dont know how i can increase it without redoing hte entire LR structure. I think this may be the time to just invest in a new tank.

Would removing the sponges be a good thing? That would leave only the pieces of LR in the HOB's with the chemi-pure. I currently rinse mine every two weeks or so, so it doesnt sound like enough.

Now a powerhead question - My vision of power heads are submerisable pumps - But now that im looking into them, and seeing people with tons of them - are they the ones that hang on the side? and have moving parts up top to move the current around?

I want to do a closed loop, but this tank is very limiting in it's size - hmm.,.here's comes a 90gal...

j

NaH2O · 04-06-2005, 02:43 PM

You can do a closed loop on a small tank, too. Here is an example of an over the back closed loop design on a small tank Over the tank closed loop design.

With powerheads, some people have issues getting the suction cups to stay in place. An idea that I learned about is to glue the suction cups to an algae magnet. That way you can move the powerhead wherever you like, to play with the flow, and not have to worry about the suction cups failing.

jcoopergd · 04-06-2005, 05:26 PM

Well, i thought, "What a great time to get a new tank!" But then the g/f talked me out of it - No room for it, or time for setting it up -

So, I think ill have to rework the LR, and put in a closed loop - I've wanted to do that, but there isnt much room for anything on the back wall of the tank - not even for the intake/output pipes -

So, if i took out the aquaclear 350, and moved things around, i think the increased flow from the closed loop would eliminate the need for the aquaclear 350.

What size pump should i use on the closed loop for a 40 gal system? It would be in conjunction with a aquaclear 500, and a mag 3 on my skimmer.

I guess this will be my new project.....:-)

j

KimPossible · 04-06-2005, 11:30 PM

j- Keep us posted on your progress.... i might even consider adding an external closed loop myself. I'll let you work the bugs out first....hehe
Karma for NaH20 for an awsome option.... see this is why we hang around.....we vant to suck your brains.

jcoopergd · 04-07-2005, 02:27 AM

i pulled some plans off of melves reef :
Closed Loop Plans

i think i might start this weekend- the scwd device is $29 on ebay w/ free shipping...got to look at the finances...car insurance due....

another question - is scwd the brand name? are the ebay ones the same as the $40 ones from LFS?

j

04-06-2005, 12:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
jcoopergd Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 250 View Gallery Karma Komment	HOB filters a notrate factory???? I was following on another forum, and someone mentioned that HOB filters are nitrate factories..... I run a 40 gal sumpless, and have a aquaclear 500, and an aquaclear 350 running off the back. I have 65+pds of LR, and also a remora pro w/ mag 3.....In the HOB's, i run phosban, polyfilter, chemi-pure (in one), crushed branch LR in the bottom, covered by the included sponge. I have a reoccuring cynao problem that is in a lull right now, and now i am starting to think maybe it could be related???? i also think flow is a prob, as i have no other PH's....but everything in the tank is thriving, and multipling like crazy - is my filtration sufficent? would the reoccurning red slime have something to do with it? also, i clean the sponges in the HOB's when i do water changes (5 gal EOW) and i clean them in the tank water i take out. stock list below: (i know, slightly over stocked) livestock: flame angle 2 firefish purple firefish mandrian goby pink stripped goby diamond goby baby blue tang (i know tang police...but bigger tank is just around the corner) 2 black percula clowns crabs/snails/ normal cleanup crew (though they are getting big!) Cleaner shrimp peppermint shrimp coral: green open brain silver pulsing xenia green tipped torch green ricordia green star poylps brown frogspawn yellow sun coral orange sun coral deresa clam discoma neglegta (dont know the common name - but its a biiig mushroom) yellow poylps candy cane 7 or 8 asst. zoo colonies clove tree coral red/green mushrooms stripped mushroom feather duster red linka red knobbed star red mushrooms stripper brittle star lighting: 192 wts PC readings: ph - 8.3 SG 1.025 Ammonia:0 Trites:0 Trates:0 (before skimmer added 10)

04-06-2005, 01:01 AM	#2 (permalink)
Travis Smilie Bartender Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 6,657 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Anything with a sponge would optimally be rinsed every other day. That may help. How old is your actinic bulb? Bad actinics have caused me cyano problems in the past. __________________ Help build the Encyclopedia of ReefKeeping Find over 1400 Reef Aquarium Articles at The Reef Aquarium Index

04-06-2005, 09:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
Woodstock The Wand Geek was here. ;) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 23,264 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Keep in mind that diterus is the solid form of yuckies You need to remove the diterus before it begins to disolve back into the water column. Skimming and siphoning are your allies in the battle. Sponges (or anything that traps diterus) on the other hand can be friend or foe depending on how often you clean them. As Travis mentioned, clean them often. It is also a good idea to rinse other media (carbon,etc) in the old tank water when doing water changes to remove trapped diterus. Keep the rocks blown off too... I am always amazed at how much diterus accumulates on them! __________________ ~Doni Marie~ *GOT ICH???* *My QT/Hospital Tank* ~120 Reef Chronicle ~ *~Breeding Picasso Clownfish~* "Energy and persistence conquer all things." Benjamin Franklin __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________ 120 mixed reef, dual Reeflux 10k 250 MHs, dual Geiseman Actinic T5s,Neptune AC III, ASM g3, 2x Korallia #3, Mag 9.5 return

04-06-2005, 10:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	What ends up happening is that with the mix of highly oxygenated water flowing through your sponges in the filter is that it creates an enviroment for the growth of nitrifing bacteria. These bacteria will convert ammonia down to nitrate but no further. So as mentioned above clean them every other day or just remove them all together. On the cyano, it needs a certain enviroment in which to thrive. The fat you are producing nitrates is probibly feeding them (trates can be their but being used up as quickly as they are made and thus undectectable). It also like lower flow and has an afinity for light spectrum in the red zone (which can happen as lighting gets older). I would remove the sponge and check flow for any dead spots. The corals you have in your tank also love nutrients, that is why they are growing so well, you just need to find the sweet spot where they get what they want but also where thier is not excess for the cyano. good luck Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

04-06-2005, 10:19 AM	#5 (permalink)
KimPossible Golden Moray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Posts: 2,549 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Coop - My first plan of attack would be to increase the flow. What's holding you back? From reading previous posts from you, your doing everything (except this). What about Travis' ??? on the lights? __________________ Kim ~My environment is a product of myself~

04-06-2005, 02:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
jcoopergd Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 250 View Gallery Karma Komment	Flow - im pretty sure that would solve the cynao problem - but i dont know how i can increase it without redoing hte entire LR structure. I think this may be the time to just invest in a new tank. Would removing the sponges be a good thing? That would leave only the pieces of LR in the HOB's with the chemi-pure. I currently rinse mine every two weeks or so, so it doesnt sound like enough. Now a powerhead question - My vision of power heads are submerisable pumps - But now that im looking into them, and seeing people with tons of them - are they the ones that hang on the side? and have moving parts up top to move the current around? I want to do a closed loop, but this tank is very limiting in it's size - hmm.,.here's comes a 90gal... j

04-06-2005, 02:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	You can do a closed loop on a small tank, too. Here is an example of an over the back closed loop design on a small tank Over the tank closed loop design. With powerheads, some people have issues getting the suction cups to stay in place. An idea that I learned about is to glue the suction cups to an algae magnet. That way you can move the powerhead wherever you like, to play with the flow, and not have to worry about the suction cups failing. __________________ ~Nikki~

04-06-2005, 05:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
jcoopergd Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 250 View Gallery Karma Komment	Well, i thought, "What a great time to get a new tank!" But then the g/f talked me out of it - No room for it, or time for setting it up - So, I think ill have to rework the LR, and put in a closed loop - I've wanted to do that, but there isnt much room for anything on the back wall of the tank - not even for the intake/output pipes - So, if i took out the aquaclear 350, and moved things around, i think the increased flow from the closed loop would eliminate the need for the aquaclear 350. What size pump should i use on the closed loop for a 40 gal system? It would be in conjunction with a aquaclear 500, and a mag 3 on my skimmer. I guess this will be my new project.....:-) j

04-06-2005, 11:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
KimPossible Golden Moray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Posts: 2,549 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	j- Keep us posted on your progress.... i might even consider adding an external closed loop myself. I'll let you work the bugs out first....hehe Karma for NaH20 for an awsome option.... see this is why we hang around.....we vant to suck your brains. __________________ Kim ~My environment is a product of myself~

04-07-2005, 02:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
jcoopergd Pistol Shrimp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 250 View Gallery Karma Komment	i pulled some plans off of melves reef : Closed Loop Plans i think i might start this weekend- the scwd device is $29 on ebay w/ free shipping...got to look at the finances...car insurance due.... another question - is scwd the brand name? are the ebay ones the same as the $40 ones from LFS? j

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