Tank Longevity (just ranting)

[Paul B]

Tank Longivity problems
I feel that our methods of nitrate removal such as changing water is flawed.
In other words, it don't work.
If we have to change water for that purpose, we have failed and our tanks are kind of doomed to too much work when we should be enjoying them. I think people spend way, I mean WAY too much money and time on things that are not needed. I know it's your time and money but I feel this huge expenditure of resources is a major reason people leave the hobby in a few years which is not even the lifespan of a damsel, and a small damsel at that.
There are just too many posts about problems, problems I feel we bring about on ourselves.
I just read a post about some people putting in 6 or 7 fish one after another and they all died in less than a week.
When ever that or something similar happens we hear that my water parameters are perfect. No they are not. It's not the fishes fault if they die, it's ours. It is always our fault, not the LFS, not the parameters, not the test kit but our fault.
Water parameters that we could test with a fish store test kit will rarely if ever give a clue why a fish would die in a few days.
I never ask about water parameters in a situation like that because it has no bearing. Only ammonia which can be tested will quickly kill a fish and it is almost impossable to have enough ammonia in a tank to kill only certain fish and not others.
Salinity variations will also not kill a fish inless it is very far off and we can assume we know about what our salinity is.
High temperature will cause the fish to gasp at the surface and low temperatures will cause most fish to lay on the bottom.
Almost no fish dies suddenly without any symptoms. They will either breath fast, scratch, shake their heads from side to side, swim with their mouth open, stop eating, or swim in jerky movements. And when we find them dead, there are clues, did they die with their mouth agape, were they covered in paracites, do they have bulges where there shouldn't be, are they missing scales, is the body bloated?
I don't think we observe our fish closely enough when they are healthy to know what is going on when they are sick. Most of these things live over a decade, some two and none of them have lifespans shorter than 3 years and thats only those in the sea horse family. (they have kind of a wierd anatomy and I don't know how they even live that long)
I also believe that our tanks are much too sterile and are not aged long enough to add all the stuff we add.
We buy animals that we know we can't properly take care of.
How many times do we read, I saw a pair of moorish Idols eating flakes in a store so I put them in my tank I started last month.
They all eat flake food.
I see orange spotted filefish for sale every day. There is only one person I ever heard of that can feed them (and breed them) but they are almost impossable. We need to learn what these animals do in the sea, not just what they eat but what they do, how much swimming room do they need? Do they school?(tangs) live in pairs,(Moorish Idols) hang out in sea urchin spines?
(clingfish) Do they get huge? (groopers, sharks, remora's, eels)
Don't forget we are trying to keep these living things in an envirnment that they would never choose to live in. Mature fish would never venture into 18" of water, and yes, they know the depth of water they are in. They would never live in close proximity to many of the animals we put with them.
Like I said, just ranting

[RockBox]

I think a big key to longevity is to stock lightly with regard to fish. I also find that you get more natural behavior that way. I don't find having numerous fish swimming up against the glass all day to be all that appealing. I also think that having a fair amount of macro algae in the system will contribute towards a longer living mature reef.

[charlesr1958]

"Don't forget we are trying to keep these living things in an envirnment that they would never choose to live in"

Or.. we try to keep an entire reef ecosystem within a single tank (maybe a sump included) which is just not going to happen. The entire hobby industry is and has been geared towards trying to come up with methods and products to sustain a single tank long enough for us to buy more products untill we become so frustrated and go back to raising guppys, our hobby has an unbelievably high drop out rate which simply points to most of us reaching that frustration level sooner than later. Take a second and think of all the crazy things we have tried in an effort to keep a single tank going, massive water changes, carbon dosing (vodka, sugar), zeovit, ecoaqualizor to name but a few of the hundreds of things thrown at us constantly, and then think about why that is?
A Reef is a great deal more than some corals parked on top of some rocks, most of which involves algae/seagrass habitats that make the little coral zone habitable for corals. To even attempt a recreation of such an ecosystem, I feel it can only be done with seperate, yet connected reef zones (refugiums if you will).

A Philippine Fringing Reef & The Reef Aquarium - Part one, a good starting point.

Chuck

[rmlevasseur]

Wow, what a bummer post. Good thing I largely disagree.

You gotta look at the bigger picture. When I started keeping saltwater fish 30 years ago, keeping clowns alive was considered a challenge. But today, improvements in salt, skimmers and technology have enabled most to keep very healthy reefs long term. Frankly, I think the internet has tripled our abilities, due to the ability to share thoughts and opinions so easily.

As for waterchanges, there is no getting around that this is a captive environment. We have come along way in countering its gradual depreciation, but water changes are still completely necessary. Not only for the export of nutrients, but also to replace trace elements. Calcium reactors, supplements, and things like zeovit and prodibio may eventually counter the need for such frequent changes, but we aren't there yet.

I agree completely that lack of knowledge is the #1 cause of demise, but this is a learning experience for everyone. The joy is in the learning, and seeing the rewards of our knowledge. I believe this hobby is far more important than most realize. Our oceans could completely collapse within our lifetime, and it may be up to us to preserve some of it.

However, with that said, I do not agree at all that all loss of life in our aquariums is due to human error. These are delicate critters. They get sick, and some are just more feeble than others. I very much believe that each life has an independant "will to live". But the environment change, collection stress, and innumerable other factors beyond our control also come into play. Its our job to try our best to equalize those factors, but sometimes its beyond our control. I don't really find it surprising when people find a dead fish and don't always know why. I am not a doctor, so I don't expect to be able to know why every person dies, even though they may look fine on the outside. How can we be expected to know the cause of every death of a fish? Their lives and biological functions are just as complicated. We all strive to know the cause of death, but its unreasonable to think that every one can be accounted for.

Your post is confusing to me because it seems to combine claims of lack of ability with lack of knowledge, but the two are very different. For instance, adding things too quickly is usually a sign of lack of knowledge, which is hopefully quickly remedied. But for some things it may be a combination of both. I believe 100% that there is something about keeping Moorish Idols and anemones that we either don't understand or can't reproduce. Failure can be a result of either lack of knowledge (don't know what they eat), lack of ability (can't keep the type of sponges they do eat), or a combination of both.

But, don't downplay how far we have come. Lots of things live in environments they might not naturally chose. I keep telling my wife this every time she tells me we can't move out of Minnesota! But whether the fish like it or not, even their natural environment is changing, and many wouldn't chose to live where they do now. We have a responsibility to learn to care for our planet, and I believe we make small achievements in this endeavor every time a noob sets up a new tank, and learns what is necessary for success in this hobby.

[DaveK]

IMHO, there is plenty of blame to go around for people coming into and then leaving the hobby. Here are my observations.

First, this is not like most hobbies where you can pick them up, put them down, and pick them up months or years later. You need to get the a reef system at least some attention. This needs to be on a consistent basis. Failure to do so will result in a tank of very dead fish and other livestock.

Second, this is a hobby that requires a lot of knowledge to set up a system and keep it going. There are no short cuts here. Read and understand.

Third, a reef system takes time to mature. You can not rush things. Good reef systems are the products of months and even years of work. You must learn to take your time.

Fourth, a reef system is going to be expensive. I usually estimate that a reef will cost you between $35 and $50 per gal of water in the main display tank, by the time you get all the equipment, set up and stock the tank. If you can't afford it, stay out of the hobby. (I'd like to have a super exotic car, but I can't afford that.)

On equipment - There are a lot of problems here. As pointed out, there are a lot of out and out junk products out there. If you doubt me, get a copy of a catalog from a major internet supplier, go through it and X out any product that is junk, or of questionable value. You'll be amazed how many items there are.

My advice is to always buy or build top quality equipment. It will last and be far less expensive long term. You don't have to get the most expensive, but you do need things that will last. It's not unusual to have a reef set up for 10 years or more. Make sure the equipment is up to it.

On livestock - Again always get top quality. Always quarantine it. Know what your buying first, and don't depend on the LFS for help. There are plenty of fish that should remain in the ocean, or be sold to very few people. Realise that it's most likely you have some losses here. You have no idea with that fish, invert, or coral went through to get to you. Even if you do everything right, you'll still have loses.

On LFS - There are some good ones out there, but even with them, not everyone working there is a SW expert. There are also a lot of bad ones out there, avoid them. Trust, but verify everything that they say.

Lastly, if something sounds too good to be true, it is. There is no "free lunch" in this hobby. There are plenty of bogus products out there. Make sure you know enough to avoid them.

[rmlevasseur]

What blame do you associate with people who don't stay in the hobby? We were all noobs at one point, and in the big picture we still are noobs. It ain't for everyone, but you don't know until you try.

[jski711]

well i agree and disagree with a little of both sides. i am using an algae turf scrubber right now that is about the lowest tech filtering device on earth and it has done an amazing job on my tank, which have 11 fish total, 2 tanks plumbed into the same system. anyways i really just wanted to say i probably know that same guy that has bred orange spotted filefish. he is awesome.

Jake

[RockBox]

Originally Posted by jski711

well i agree and disagree with a little of both sides. i am using an algae turf scrubber right now that is about the lowest tech filtering device on earth and it has done an amazing job on my tank, which have 11 fish total, 2 tanks plumbed into the same system. anyways i really just wanted to say i probably know that same guy that has bred orange spotted filefish. he is awesome.

Jake

How long have you been running an ATS? I still think macro algae growing in the system is much more low tech than having a messy ATS to deal with. I would trust a refugium based system long term before I would an ATS. More things can go wrong with them compared to a fuge IMO. They can make for a good complimentary filter though.

[Dentoid]

Interesting topic!

The saltwater aquarium hobbyist attrition rate is extremely high. At a recent talk by Anthony Calfo about reef sustainability, he mentioned that 90% of all hobbyists that start in this hobby are out within 2 years. I thought that was extraordinary, but when I thought about its impact on the worlds reefs, I was shocked! Further thought made me realize that it's not so unusual given the industry's willingness to bring people into the hobby with all-in-one, easy set-up, nano tanks, as well as the lack of understanding and knowledge on the part of the new hobbyist.

In part, new hobbyist attrition can be attributed to the invention and marketing of "easy" all-in-one systems. They are affordable and marketed to appeal to the new hobbyist. How can anyone resist a beautiful reef tank in a tidy box? Forget about due diligence in researching the biology and ecology of the animals we see on the outside of the box. If it's on the box, we can have it too. It's like smoking, make it look appealing to sell it regardless of the ramifications. Don't get me wrong, there are capable and responsible hobbyists that have been able to use these types of tanks for successful reef tanks, but I think more unsuccessful attempts are made as a result of these appealing brands.

Mostly, however, the high attrition rate is due to misunderstanding and a lack of education on the hobbyists part. A misunderstanding of the commitment involved both monetarily and time-wise as well as a lack of educating oneself to the biology and ecology of the animals and their needs.

As has been stated and the reason for this thread is tank maturity. Most people don't live in one place long enough to achieve the tank maturity required for long term success. College students, young adults, teenagers etc that don't stay in one place long enough to achieve a mature stable system. Life events that cut a new hobbyist's best endeavors short occur all the time. We are privy to but a few of the unsuccessful attempts being forum goers. Consider the amount of failures we are not informed of!

It's no wonder new hobbyists get out of the hobby, their fish and corals die! As was previously started, the collection, holding and import/export of these animals is atrocious in many parts of the world that they come from. It's a wonder that any of them survive to make it to the LFSs.

Unfortunately, as with any hobby, there is a learning curve. If one picks up a golf club or a violin for the first time, they will not do well at it, but with practice and a diligence to learn, they may become good at it. Reef keeping is no different, it's a hobby just like any other. Unfortunately, it's at the expense of the life of these beautiful animals. Because it's a hobby and not a science, trial and error is the way of the game.

With all this being said, our hobby is in danger of being regulated. Foreign governments have already started putting bans on collection and it's just a matter of time before other governments follow suit. Eventually, collection will be limited driving up the cost of coral and fish. Therefore, the 10% of people that do stay in the hobby past two years will be responsible for aquaculturing and providing the animals required to keep the hobby going.

[ReefLady]

Intriguing post, but I have to admit that I do disgree with several statements. Most of the failures I have seen w/reefkeeping stem from our inherent desire to have everything *right now* - a lack of patience or willingness to do true research, "work" so-to-speak, before we even begin to set up the tank. We live in a world where we have everything immediately - no waiting. We have internet, dvr, cell phones, etc. we are not used to being patient anymore.
We are also easily bored, as soon as we "have" what we want, we tire of it, want something more, different, better.

I feel that our methods of nitrate removal such as changing water is flawed. In other words, it don't work.
If we have to change water for that purpose, we have failed and our tanks are kind of doomed

But it does work. We are working with a very small captive system, where the only means we have to "replenish" fresh sea water (remove nutrients and add trace elements) is by water changes. Why does this fail our tanks?

I think people spend way, I mean WAY too much money and time on things that are not needed. I know it's your time and money but I feel this huge expenditure of resources is a major reason people leave the hobby in a few years

I agree that significant initial expenditures are necessary. But if you set up the tank properly, maintenance should not be exceedingly costly. A calc &/or kalk reactor, refugium, water topoff systems, etc. are all upfront costs that allow us to maintain our systems with fairly small ongoing costs and efforts.

It is always our fault, not the LFS, not the parameters, not the test kit but our fault.

I agree that many people fail to do proper research up front, and that is the root of many problems. But is the typical hobbyist responsible for the death of a fish that was cyanide-caught? While I agree we should completely research before buying, it's still not right if a LFS has no accountability for what they sell.

Although it's no "record" by any stretch, our Yellow Tang followed us from our 75g (set up in '99) to our 180g set up in '02, and was given to a reef-keeping friend with a 220g DT when we broke down the tank in 07. Eight years with us. Still thriving today almost 10 years later. Same for a large black brittle star (15" tip to tip) and a few other livestock "friends". But, then again, we only had about 6 fish in a 180g DT/300g system.

I do agree with Chuck's post and I have often wondered why we don't see more reef systems that are true "ecosystems" designed to mimic one section of the ocean geographically, or by depth, lighting, water flow, etc.

We have come a very long way. Captive breeding, fragging, all are very very positive advances. When I started keeping SW tanks, it was with undergravel filters and skilters, and it was mostly predator tanks because keeping corals was unheard of. Now, so many of the corals in our tanks are propagated - that is *good*!

Always remember one thing. Out of sight, out of mind. Our coral reefs are in danger. Are poor captive reefkeeping habits partially responsible? Maybe. But responsible reefkeepers not only have made significant positive advances, but they also keep a piece of the reef "in sight" - so everyone can see and share the beauty. Someone who might have never thought about the reef before might see a reef tank and care a little more.

What blame do you associate with people who don't stay in the hobby?

I'm curious about this too. My tank didn't crash or fail, it took a lot of soul-searching to leave the hobby. We had kept SW/reef tanks for about 18 years when we decided to close shop on the 180g. You'll probably laugh, but one of the main reasons was that we could not keep up with the growth rates. We were fragging sps faster than we could sell it or give it away (shipping gets very difficult when you work 10 hours/day away from home). We had a lot of "life stuff" happen that just all ended up in the fact that we simply did not have the time or motivation to dedicate any longer. But the tank was thriving when we broke it down.

If we are responsible, we are hobbyists who can potentially save the wild reefs from extinction. That is not depressing.

[rmlevasseur]

Very true about the nano-craze Dent. The ones that you see flourishing are always the ones kept by people with lots of experience and know what to keep in these systems. I can only wonder how much the "business" side of the hobby has profited by misrepresentation of those systems.

You also raise another great point, regulation and LFS responsibility. I know a few LFS owners, and they all lament what the online businesses are doing to them. Of course I just kinda go "yea, that sucks", but inside I'm wondering if it is such a bad thing. Maybe the hobby has grown too big and popular so as to be deceiving. With LFS' hurting, I do believe that most will sell whatever they can to feed the family. I really do wonder if this is best for the hobby. Would it be better in general without the LFS? Is the hobby too convenient?

The original poster lameneted the cost of the hobby. While I agree the cost cannot be underestimated, it is my most expensive purchases that I have been most happy with. I attribute much of my success to things like my AC3 controller, auto-topoff and calcium reactor. These are things that are always promoted as luxury items, but I know they have saved my tank from failure many times.

Ultimately though, I believe any problems that seriously persist are due to human nature more than flaws in the hobby. Arrogance pervades every hobby. How many guitarists are convinced they will play better with a better guitar? Tennis players a better racket. Golfers better clubs. There is no end to the examples. While this stuff may help a little, diligence is the key to success in most things. I don't think people get out of this hobby because of any flaw in the hobby itself, but rather flaws in themselves. This is why pawn shops are loaded with used guitars and golf clubs.

[Midnight]

wow talk about a lot of reading.

[Paul B]

Robert I am glad you and the rest of the people here responded. This is what this forum is about.
I do think you understood my post incorrectly though. I diden't say that water changes were un necessary, I said they should not be used to control nitrate which IMO should be removed by your filtration system whatever it might be. A tank should be self sufficient as to "nitrate". Water changes take care of other things like removing chemicals that our bacteria can not convert and harmful toxins produced by the coral itself along with the addition of calcium and other trace elements.
As to human error I stand by what I said. It is always our fault if an animal dies. If that fish remained in the sea, it would most likely still be alive but I will say you are correct about one faction, collection techniques. I should have said that if a fish lives a month, it should live it's natural lifespan or longer in a tank. If cyanide was used in it's collection, it will not usually live that long but if it lives a while longer than if it dies, yes, it is our fault.
Fish, like us do get sick, but fish that are properly taken cared for almost never get sick. I do read a lot of posts about sick fish but this is not normal and it is caused by us.
You have been keeping fish a long time so I assume your fish are well taken care of, how many times do you find a dead fish?

What blame do you associate with people who don't stay in the hobby? We were all noobs at one point, and in the big picture we still are noobs. It ain't for everyone, but you don't know until you try.

My post was not to "blame" Noobs or anyone else for anything. I don't think I even mentioned the word Noob. My post was meant to try to educate rather than blame. I was trying to point out that fish rarely die without exhibiting some type of symptom. People rarely die with no symptoms, sometimes we do but most often something bothers us enough for us to have severe symptoms before we are found dead. And if we are found dead, many times we could tell how the person died just by looking at the body. Not always but many times. If there is a village of 20 people and we find a dead person every few weeks, I don't want to live there and we can assume something is wrong there.
Now I don't want this to come out wrong or sound like I am the God of fish because I have probably lost more fish than everyone on here combined but I do have some experience and I just wanted to share some. I have been keeping fish almost 60 years and I bought my first blue devil the week they became available in NYC in 1971. I learned on my own as there were no books, computers or Experts. My reef has been running continousely since that time. I have also been diving since 1970 and have almost 300 hours underwater in NY and in the tropics.
This is the reason I am saying that we should try to look closely at our fish because they are never as healthy as they are in the sea. If you don't dive, you may think your fish are as healthy as they can be. If they are not spawning or at least exhibiting spawning behavior, they are not as healthy as we believe.

Your post is confusing to me because it seems to combine claims of lack of ability with lack of knowledge, but the two are very different.

I am sorry if I conveyed that impression, it was not my purpose. My purpose was to increase knowlege by closely observing our animals to see if they are exhibiting something out of the norm.
I am older than most here and as such I have dove in many places which (I hope) increased my aquatic knowlege. I did mention moorish Idols. They are arguebly a tough fish. My last one lived 5 years which is a failure as they should live much longer. To learn about them I went to the source, Tahiti.
I dove many times with them and have published what I found. I think this was helpful to others attempting to keep them along with all that is written about them from a hobbiests view who may not have been as lucky to spend time with them in the sea.
Whenever I dive with a commonly available fish I try to publish what I find. For instance a common fish like a Royal Gramma is mostly found in deep water over 100'. Tangs are schooling fish and never seen alone which is the reason they are called ich magnets. It is not their fault, they are very stressed and they know that if they lose their school, they will be eaten.
Anyway I felt that I could start a post about longivity being my tank enjoys some longivity.
Have a great New Year.
Paul

[RockBox]

I think adaptability plays a big part in having long term success. Certain species of marine life adapt very well while others don't. You can get a good gauge of this by studying the behavior of your livestock and others.

I think sedentary or territorial fish do much better in captivity than schooling, shoaling or roaming fish. Fish like blennies, gobies, small damsels, dottybacks, hawkfish etc. can adapt very well and live long lives in captivity often exhibiting natural behavior in our aquariums. Some roaming species like wrasses can do well if there is enough rock structure to keep them busy.

Fish that don't exhibit natural behavior by swimming against a glass pane all day I believe are stressed and are not adapting in a way that I find to be satisfying.

The problem is many hobbyist rarely think of adaptation they just want the latest most colorful species they can add to their collection.

This can apply to corals as well. Most acropora dominated tanks I see rarely exceed 3-5 years before they start to decline or the hobbyist looses interest and no longer can meet their demands. On the other hand I have seen some soft corals and LPS corals live in more modest tanks for decades.

[ReefLady]

I said they should not be used to control nitrate which IMO should be removed by your filtration system whatever it might be. A tank should be self sufficient as to "nitrate"

A tank will be self sufficient in terms of nitrate as long as you have a very low bioload. It's when we overstock that WC's become necessary as a means of nutrient export.