Getting Frustrated!!!!

[Xtreme1024]

I upgraded from a 34g to a 54g on 1/16/08. The 34g was setup for 8 months. I had to add an additional 37.5 lbs of live rock to the 54 for a total of 70.5. The LFS keeps insisting that my tank did not cycle but I keep asking then why can't I keep my nitrates under 20, if I do a 10g water change if drops it to 10 then within 2 days its back up to 20. I run Algone and Rowaphos everything else has been removed. Is my tank cycling? I use RO water and Tropic Marin salt, all levels in check besides the nitrates. Not sure what to do at this point if I don't keep doing the water changes I feel like I am going to loose everything, any ideas on how to continue..

[Woodstock]

Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. NitrAtes are the product of ammonia --> to nitrItes --> to NitrAtes. You must perform water changes to get the nitrAtes below 10ppm. 20 ppm will not kill anything but you should keep doing water changes to get them under 10ppm.

NitrAtes are a product of "waste" that gets broken down by bacteria. Wastes such as fish respiration, poopie, ditritus, excess foods, dead animals, dirty filters, etc. Some tap water has nitrAtes in it!
This waste must be removed/exported and replaced with clean water. As you perform your water changes, vacuum the sand (yes, it can be done), make sure your filters are clean, blow off the rocks (using a powerhead), do not overfeeed, do not overstock (1" of adult fish per 3-5 gal of water), make sure your skimmer is working....
Increase your water change volume (30% is good) and frequency.

And of course, your test kit could be reading incorrectly. Try to get a second opinion.

[prow]

what are all your test results? NH3, NO2 and NO3?? other tank parameters? can you give your entire setup, sump/refugium, skimmer, flow, any canister type filters ect....

[BEELZEBOB]

55 gallon tank should sit stockless for 10-16 weeks.

regaurdless of where the rock came from.

there are no shortcuts on establishing a reef tank.

then it can cycle and stablize.

im gonna steal witty's thunder and throw it down.

"never trust the opinion of someone who benefits from you failures"

[Xtreme1024]

Just did another 10g water change, so any test I do now will be inaccurate. I will run some tests tomorrow and see how things look. As far as your other questions, I am running a 10 gallon sump, only thing in the sump is a protein skimmer that was apart of the kit that the lfs sold me. It uses a Rio 600 as the primary pump, wasn't really crazy about it looks kind of cheap to me. I took the bio balls out and the blue media pad that comes with it, so basically I have no filter pad in the tank at all. I have the Algone and Rowaphos in there as well, thats it. I have 5 fish in tank, all small in size, blue hippo, cardinal, royal gramma, 6 line wrasse, false perc and a peppermint shrimp. Also xferred CUC from my old tank. I use a Rio 2100 as a return pump and also added a Tunze 6025 for increased flow. Also running 150W MH as lighting.Remember now I am still new to the hobby and am relying on the lfs to set me up with the right equipment. So if any of this stuff sounds out in left field just let me know I won't take offense.

[BEELZEBOB]

Originally Posted by BEELZEBOB

55 gallon tank should sit stockless for 10-16 weeks.

regaurdless of where the rock came from.

there are no shortcuts on establishing a reef tank.

then it can cycle and stablize.

im gonna steal witty's thunder and throw it down.

"never trust the opinion of someone who benefits from you failures"

[lcstorc]

Changing the tanks would have likely killed the anaerobic bacteria since it cannot live in oxygen. This is the same bacteria that changes the nitrates to a harmless gas. While the bacteria begin to re-build you are going to need to do significant and frequent water changes to get the nitrates down. Once the bacteria increases to match your bio-load you will not need to do as many.
Keep in mind the math behind dilution with water changes. If the nitrates are 40 and you do a 10% change you are only reducing the nitrates by 4 so you are left with 36. Do a 50% change and you are down to 20. That does not take into account any nitrates that are produced during the same time.
I would start doing 35-40% water changes once or twice a week until the levels stabilize. There is no reason why you cannot test shortly after a water change. You just need to wait until the new and old water mixes together. I would say an hour is plenty. Then you should more easily see the difference made by the water change.

[rmlevasseur]

16 weeks for a 55 seems a bit excessive to me to run a cycle

[Xtreme1024]

Will a cheap skimmer contribute to my nitrates continually rising?

[bluespotjawfish]

I personally would test your nitrates today (since you just did the water change) and then test again tomorrow and compare. The difference is how much your nitrates are still rising. If it is the same, then it is just a matter of several water changes, et al. to get them to 0, if not you are still fighting the uphill battle where you are lucky to take out what is being added to the system.

Do you run any macro algae? If not, you might want to get some. That made a big difference in my tank (more than the skimmer) because it uses the nitrates to grow.

Good luck.

[BEELZEBOB]

Originally Posted by rmlevasseur

16 weeks for a 55 seems a bit excessive to me to run a cycle

that would probably be the reason why i said 10-16 weeks.

better safe than sorry.

i waited 8 weeks for a 18 gal.

i waited for it to read triple "0" for a week solid

guess what? no issues 1yr and growing.

[prow]

well couple things here. first a good skimmer will help big time. a cheap skimmer will not hurt but may not do the job

ok depending on the rock your going to have to battle those trates for a very very long time. with all that die off plus your overstocked in that tank on fish esp with a cheap skimmer. you will needed to cure that rock. i would take what you added out and cure it. do a 50% water change before you add water to make up taking out the rock. will give a 60% change over all, maybe.

[Xtreme1024]

Bluespot, I currently don't run any macro algae. How many pounds do you think I would need to get started.

Prow, according to LFS the additonal rock I bought was already cured, would you still take it out?

[prow]

i would actually setup the old tank with some LR and hold your fish in there. just a power head or two for flow and a heater, keep the ph good with buffer. then i would basically start over on the new setup. it will be much quicker though. setup the new system, rock scaping sump/refugium skimmer whatever, and do big water changes keeping nitrates under 20 always till you get the nitrates down to under 10 between changes. then reduce water changes as needed till you get a reading of under 10 for a few days in a row without water changes. then add CUC and maybe one small fish. after that dont add more than 1 fish a month till your tank is stable thats what i would do.

[Xtreme1024]

OK Prow thanks for the input