Angels in a reef tank...

[billyr98]

I got a PM today and just wanted to share it with the community..

Originally Posted by MALIBU

just wanted to ask you a question.. you have a coral beauty and a flame in your reaf tank and all is good? I am reading Vanquish's monster thread as I am new here and read that you are also looking for a larger angel. can you fill me in on your thoughts on keeping theese fish that are said to stay away from?

I do have a coral beauty and flame angel in my tank... My flame is a model citizen but the coral beauty will be coming out as it picks on my acroporas and clams..
I did get a large angel also, a chrysurus angel and he is also coming out.. It is a hit and miss things with certain angels. Some might be good, some bad...
My opinion now that I have tried is, they are all coming out!

[prow]

yup hit and miss with most angels. some are great with certain corals, others eat/pick on just about anything. best to research the one your interested in. some like Genicanthus are a pretty safe bet. but even then there some that are not so safe.

[lcstorc]

It also seems to be tied to the individual fish and/or maturity level. I have heard of many being just fine for a time then turning. It also seems that they do better with corals already there when they are added and new additions seem to be more of a problem.
Just what I have read and my 2c.
For what it is worth I have a flameback and have had no problems to date but I do keep close watch and may have to remove him at some point much as I do not want to.

[MALIBU]

I have heard the last thing you put in a reef tank is your angel to have the best chance for him to be that model citizen.
I also wonder on your thoughts of adding a tank raised flame angel as to a wild one? Do you think one might have a better chance ?
Just the thought of having to catch a fish in my tank is a thought I woulnd not want to have happen.

[lcstorc]

Personally I always prefer tank raised if possible in any case. It helps our reefs as well as gives the fish a better chance of survival in captivity.
My flameback was added at around the mid point of my tank additions but then again when I was doing most of my stocking I had not found these fabulous resources.

[R.yumaDaddy?]

im getting a potters today ill let everbody know how it goes.

[BoomerD]

I hate to see anyone buy a potters angel. Pretty poor survival rates in our tanks.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pottersangel.htm
"Historically the Potter's angel has a lousy survival record in captivity. Likely less than five percent are alive within one month of capture... Most of this attrition can be traced to damage in collection (getting thrashed by nets, their gill/opercular spine getting caught in netting), holding (totally unnatural "cubicle" settings or mixed in with fishes w/ no cover to hide in), shipping in too small bags... Along with dealers' and hobbyists' practiced ignorance in keeping the species in inappropriate settings. "

[billyr98]

never had a potters, but good info BoomerD

[SueT]

I had a potters that came in with my copperband that I got going on 7 years ago. This particular potters was an awesome fish. In fact it taught my copperband to eat. That angel never bothered any sps or clams. Now though I have a genicanthus semifasciatus and she is as reef safe as can be. I don't think I will ever try another centropyge angel just for the reason they are so chancey. The genicanthuis angels are so much safer.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by MALIBU

I have heard the last thing you put in a reef tank is your angel to have the best chance for him to be that model citizen.
I also wonder on your thoughts of adding a tank raised flame angel as to a wild one? Do you think one might have a better chance ?
Just the thought of having to catch a fish in my tank is a thought I woulnd not want to have happen.

Good luck finding a captive bred specimen however. In addition to that the prices these fetch are outrageous, which is unfortunate.
I swear when the captive bred flames first came out it seemed like the price on wild caughts plummeted. Don't know if that was a coincidence or what, but from what I recall hearing is that a lot of the commercial projects concentrating on selling captive bred flames and such were changed to start selling less collected species as the market was too competitive to be sustainable.

[R.yumaDaddy?]

hey boomer you left this out of your source

"Given plenty of healthy live rock and a calm, stable setting of size, and of course the selection of an initially healthy specimen, the Potter's is not a difficult animal to keep."

[Cougra]

Originally Posted by R.yumaDaddy?

hey boomer you left this out of your source

"Given plenty of healthy live rock and a calm, stable setting of size, and of course the selection of an initially healthy specimen, the Potter's is not a difficult animal to keep."

The point that Boomer is trying to make is an aweful lot of thse fish die in order for you to find the one or two that make it. It's NOT worth the cost of life getting these animals so about 5 out of every 100 caught and sold even has any sort of chance of surviving! Until collectors, shippers, stores and hobbyists change their practices then animals like this who have a poor survival rate should NOT be purchased!

Most animals that survive the very heavy inital death toll will HAVE to be hardy just to get to the tank so it's not surprising that they can settle in after all they had been through! Even then, I haven't heard of many people being able to keep them alive for years to come. Most people find out that after a few months they start picking on their corals and package them up to send them back to the store!

MARINE ANGELS DO NOT BELONG IN A REEF TANK! They are better off in large fish only tanks where they wont be a threat to corals and shipped back to the store! I wish more people who pay attention to this! MOST angelfish end up eating or picking on corals, the ones that don't are the EXCEPTION to the rule, NOT the rule in general! Unfortunately, there are too many people who only have young angles or have only had them a couple months who always pipe up and say theirs is fine. If you follow these peoples posts for about 6 to 8 months inevitably they will post about their model citizen turning nasty and eating corals! I've seen this happen over and over and over and over and over and over again for the past 5 years I've been posting on forums! I don't understand why so many people don't head these warnings or people who've been around or had Model citizens turn on them keep telling new hobbyists that it's "hit and miss" when it's 99% miss after about 6 to 8 months in captivity!

Marine Angelfish NEED coral and sponge matter in their diet to survive long term; even the marine angelfish formulated foods TRY to add these substances to the mixture but it most of the time it isn't enough, especially when fresh food is available at all times right there in front of the fish! Corals and sponges have nutrients in them that other sources of food don't have. Eventually the angel will start to pick on everything in the tank to get the nutrients their bodies are demanding but aren't getting from other food sources! These are NATURAL food sources they come across in their native habitat and have learned to eat BEFORE being introduced to captivity. We CAN NOT change their NATURAL behaviour no matter what we try to do!

[MALIBU]

Originally Posted by mps9506

Good luck finding a captive bred specimen however. In addition to that the prices these fetch are outrageous, which is unfortunate.
I swear when the captive bred flames first came out it seemed like the price on wild caughts plummeted. Don't know if that was a coincidence or what, but from what I recall hearing is that a lot of the commercial projects concentrating on selling captive bred flames and such were changed to start selling less collected species as the market was too competitive to be sustainable.

http://liveaquaria.com/search/default.cfm this is what made ask my question.. thinking maybe being captive breed it would have less chance of being destructive. After asking live aquaria I got the response that ALL angels may nip at corals and clams.
I think its just the luck of the draw...

[Warnberg]

In my opinion, it's not a question of "if" an angle will pick on corals, but "when" will it start.

[R.yumaDaddy?]

This is goin down hill but ill defend the cause anyway...

Cougra I didnt read that whole thing but no fish keeper is an advocate of the aquatic life we keep. Were humans exploiting the world we claim ours.
If you want to throw a 95% mortality rate on Potters, that applies for the sum total of EVERY fish and invert collected as well. Ive seen the mortatity rates at wholesalers. I can only imagine the like at exporters. We know retailers loose theyre share and we kill also. <95% of all collected aquatic life for the pet trade does not live more than a month in anyones care. With that said I wont ever be involved in the discussion of a fish keepers ethics, (which is where this is going) as were all supporters of the death trade. Just accept it.