PhytoPlankton in the marine tank

[Brucey]

OK Guys, I sort of highjacked the thread on skimmers / Wet or dry foam yesterday (Opologies for that), but it raised some interesting questions. Mike (Mojo) really opened my eyes to idea's on Phosphates which I just never thought of / realized / considered etc etc. Anyway, Mike raised a concern regarding the amount of Phytoplankton I was putting in the tank. For one, I never realized my SPS's didn't use Phyto in their plankton diet. So i read up on it all last night in my corals book. Mike was right, they prefer zooplankton (Rotifers etc), but button polyps do love the stuff ..... So I thought and thought some more which ended up with me skiving off work early to go and see my mate, who also just happens to be my LFS owner and with a PHD in marine chemistry to boot. Mike (Mojo), was concerned that adding too much Phyto to my tank would be rising my Phosphate levels. My LFS Owner however had a different theory. He said that if the Phyto was LIVE, then it would just live in the water or get sucked into the Skimmer, but if it was DEAD Phyto (ie bottled from a fridge) then yes, the Phosphates would rise.

So, does anyone else have any other theories ..... To be honest, chemistry and in depth stuff like this is still beyond me and I still feel like a newbie sometimes, so any other thoughts, theories would be very welcome.

Cheers
Brucey

[Craig Manoukian]

Originally posted by Brucey
chemistry and in depth stuff like this is still beyond me and I still feel like a newbie sometimes

Very interewsting point and the theory espoused by your LFS mate seems very reasonable.

Couldn't have said it better regarding my inadquate understanding of biology, chemistry, and biochemistry. I'm completely lost!

[Curtswearing]

I have a lot of comments on this. I need to get off of work though.

[Brucey]

CS .... Are you working shifts mate .... off to work, must be late in the day over there. Anybody got any views on this, Phytoplankton is VERY easy to propergate and very inexpensive to setup .... See pic below, two coke bottles, a light and an air pump is all you need for free Phyto .... so if it's good, should we all be doing it ???

[RanRoc]

Brucey, that picture is the epitome of "DIY"! I love it, brother!
-RY

[Curtswearing]

I'll be off soon. However, let me say this. Never use dead phytoplankton

[Brucey]

Ranroc .... what do you mean, thats the best DIY I can do. 2 days planning on a drawing board, the 2 days building a mock up, a whole day building the actual thing and the 2 days bench testing. Finally I came to the finsihed product and hey presto .... the marvel of modern engineering you see before you .........
........... OR NOT. LOL
Brucey

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by Brucey
Mike (Mojo), was concerned that adding too much Phyto to my tank would be rising my Phosphate levels. My LFS Owner however had a different theory. He said that if the Phyto was LIVE, then it would just live in the water or get sucked into the Skimmer, but if it was DEAD Phyto (ie bottled from a fridge) then yes, the Phosphates would rise.

So, how does your LFS friend come to this conclusion? The skimmer doesn't know if the phyto is dead or alive, so it can't discriminate agains't corps. I disagree with him. I think either would still be taken at the same rate by the skimmer, but both would contribute to phosphates. Most of it would live in your water feeding other algae and contributing to the overall bioload. I also think your skimmer would take lots of it out.

I think that most of the "big names" in the hobby that promote live foods for corals and such ignore the reality of a closed environment like our tanks. Oh well.

I truly think the least I do that makes no noticeable difference the better. I ahve never fed phyto or anything similar to my tanka nd things are thriving. So, why add it??

[Brucey]

dgasmd .... Don't know bud ... like i said, I'm useless in this sort of area which is why i threw it out to you guys. At the end of the day I want to be doing the right thing, not the wrong thing !!!!
All advice helps bud.
Brucey

[Curtswearing]

When I had dinoflagellate problems, I did a lot of research on the life cycle on them. Technically, dinoflagellates are zooplankton and phytoplankton. There are a number of other critters in our tanks that don't properly fit into a category like cyanobacteria or foraminiferens. I ended up doing a lot of research about the life cycle of both phytoplanktons and zooplanktons.

I figured out what caused the dinoflagellates and how to get rid of them. Then much later, I had a little discussion with mojoreef about phytoplanktons. Finally, the research I did to get rid of the dino's made sense.

The best way I can explain it is this. I have a refugium that I keep macroalgae in. I do this because the macroalgaes will "eat" nitrates and inorganic phosphates. Both of which I want to limit as much as possible. There are a number of threads on this board why you never want to let your macroes go sexual because they will immediately release the nitrates, organic phosphates, along with some lovely toxins the macros use for protection against predation.

If your macroes went sexual the organic phosphates which were in the living macros are now called inorganic (because they aren't living in anything alive). However, they won't stay inorganic for long. Bacteria and algaes will blow the trumpets and sound the alarm. There's inorganic phosphates!!! There's inorganic phosphates!!! We're gonna have a feast. The bacteria and algaes have now turned the inorganic phosphates back into organic phosphates. They're plump and healthy now so they reproduce like mad until there are no more inorganic phosphates to eat. Then they start starving and yep, you guessed it we now have inorganic phosphates in our tank again. (Shampoo, rinse, repeat )

If you put dead phytoplankton into your tank, all you are doing is throwing down fertilizer for algae. Live phytoplankton must be eaten so it doesn't die and turn into inorganic phytoplankton. That is unless you like the look of nuisance algaes. Only put in enough that can be skimmed out before it dies. Frankly I try to hit the phosphate problem from all directions. I'm careful to only use RO/DI water, I skim, I soak my food in ro/di water (not saltwater) to suck the inorganic phosphates out of it prior to adding it to my tank, and I try my best not to overfeed, I drip Kalk to precipitate the phosphates, etc., etc., etc. (If you have ever had dinoflagellates in your tank, you would be diligent too). I do use phytoplankton but I use MUCH less of it than most people and it might be once per month. My tank is mostly softies at this point and some of them do eat a little of it. Actually, I think I'm going to try going a couple of months and seeing what happens.

If you have an SPS tank, I would never recommend adding phyto. Phosphates inhibit calcification.

(Oh, and by the way----I'm still at work but I'm leaving now. I've been wating on an email from an attorney that was promised by 5:00). I just got an email saying the agreement will be coming tommorrow. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!)

[RogueCorps]

I don't think there is harm in using phytoplankton. When feeding it's recommended to only feed enough that your water will clear in about an hour, with your skimmer off. The phyto isn't meant to feed SPS, it's meant to feed the things that will feed your SPS. Phyto use though should be started slow, so that your tank can build up populations of filter feeders that will actually use it.

I use Reed Coral and Clam Diet (similar to Tahitian Blend) which is a live but sterile phyto blend. I do think there is a difference between live and preserved phyto in it's effectiveness. UC Davis studies showed big differences in populations of rotifers grown on live and dead phyto products.

In either case though, tank water going from green to clear seems like a good sign that your phytoplankton is being taken up by filter feeders and zooplankton that should be consuming it. Once your skimmer is turned back on it should reduce any that is left as well. I feed phyto very heavily (2 drops of concentrated cryopaste in just the 5 gallon nano) with no skimming and don't have much of a nuisance algae problem.

Curt, Phyto feeding is recommended to be done daily so that populations of filter feeders can develop. Monthly feeding is causing a lot of waste because the animals that are being targeted don't have a constant foodsource to sustain populations.

-Rogue

[Curtswearing]

Originally posted by RogueCorps
Curt, Phyto feeding is recommended to be done daily so that populations of filter feeders can develop. Monthly feeding is causing a lot of waste because the animals that are being targeted don't have a constant foodsource to sustain populations.

I'm in complete agreement. Use live phyto on a regular basis for a softies tank or don't use it at all. If you use it occassionally, the filter feeders grow and then they die (which will throw the inorganic phosphates back into the water column). Same as my algae example.

I give it to mine right before a waterchange. When I do a waterchange I make a complete mess. I manually move the sand bed around, I blow detritus off all of the rocks, etc.

BTW---I will try to check in on this thread tommorrow night. I'm going to be out of town this weekend.

[Brucey]

Curt and RC .... thankx for replying and also in so much detail. I've scanned all my books on this subject and to be honest keep going around in circles .... not getting a definitive answer.

OK, Here's what I do, and then we can discuss the relative pro's and cons and also what got me interested in the whole subject / AKA Curt.

As you can see I grow my own Phyto .... and only ever feed live phyto. I feed approx 1 pint on average a day. It goes into the water column with the skimmer turned off for an hour. The water, to be honest, never goes green .... 1 Pint into 180 Gallons doesn't go far. I used to think that I was feeding everything ..... Since my discussion with Mojo, read up on my Corals book and now Curt, I understand that infact I'm only feeding softies and my baby clam. The SPS's are not recieving any direct benefit at all. What does interest me is what else I'm feeding that I'm not aware of, and the additional benfit the tank as a whole is receiving. Smaller critters, amphipods, Rottifers etc etc are eating the Phyto and these in turn and feeding the SPS ... of course i have no direct evidence of this, just my own theories. So indirectly, the SPS's are benefiting from the addition of the phyto.

Kurt, for info, I also run a fuge full of Rasmosa Calurpa for the nurtient export that he have mentioned.

OK, so what started this all off. Much like curt, i had an unsightly outbreak of red slime algae ..... which led me to measure my phophates ...... which led me to start investigating what could be causing it. This is now under control with an external ROWAPhos filter, but is it a cure rather than curing the problem. To be honest, i have never run a phosphate remover so they could have just been building since the tank was setup .... i'm not sure. But what I really want to know, is adding the Phyto adding to my phosphates, well i guess the answer must be yes, but in what quantities. I'm sort of with RC on the thought that if the LIVE phyto is being taken out of the water either naturally or via the skimmer within an hour it can only be beneficial to the tank ..... but hey, I'm far from any type of expert.

Finially, over the last 2 weeks one thing i have learnt is the difference between inorganic and organic phophates, but Kurt, yours by far has been the best and most amusing description i've yet read. I just thought it was whether they had a caron atom attached to them !!!!
Brucey

[Gina]

I don't know about all this chemistry stuff (I leave that up to the BF) but, we use DT's everyday but, just 2.5cc. We were told to try and keep a constant supply in the tank instead of using a larger amount every 3 days or so. What we didn't know and it sounds like...we should be turning the skimmer off for about an hour?? Is this correct????

[Curtswearing]

Disclaimer....there are people who much smarter than me and can explain this much better. I'm just hammerin' away trying to avoid doing the work that I'm looking at. This is my understanding at this point. I would greatly appreciate it if the people who are smarter than me would correct my mistakes

Originally posted by Brucey
What does interest me is what else I'm feeding that I'm not aware of, and the additional benfit the tank as a whole is receiving. Smaller critters, amphipods, Rottifers etc etc are eating the Phyto and these in turn and feeding the SPS ... of course i have no direct evidence of this, just my own theories. So indirectly, the SPS's are benefiting from the addition of the phyto.

Yup. Let's not forget that there is more than one way to skin a cat. You can use phyto to enrich rotifers for SPS food and you can also use it to feed other animals who will then produce live plankton for the SPS to eat. SPS on the other hand get most of their food from sugar. That sugar is produced by zooxanthellae. (I'm sure that is spelled wrong but I only got 3 hours of sleep last night).

If you can measure phosphates (and obviously you can only measure inorganic phosphates because the organic phosphates are sitting in the tissues of a bacteria, algae, or animal) in your tank then you have more than you thought. It means that every animal, algae, and piece of bacteria in your tank is full at the moment but they are sounding the alarm to join the feast. Here's the problem....bacteria are more efficient at eating phosphates than algae. Who cares though? We can't see bacteria. When the bacteria can't take it up, that's when we care. Bacteria/algae hybrids then go to town (go see my first post). Then regular algaes, and finally last but not least....our critters. (IMO...if you have a SPS tank, you don't even want it to get as far as your critters as it prevents calcification)

Or much worse......you have hit critical mass and the critters, algaes, and bacteria in your live rock, sand bed, and on every other surface have absorbed as much as they can and the feast/die cycle has sped up to the point that you constantly have inorganic phosphates in your water column. Curt is now singing the theme song to The Lion King

they could have just been building since the tank was setup .... i'm not sure.

Yup! This is normal. The key is to limit how much goes into your tank. I'm not going to hijack this thread to talk about the importance of RO/DI water or proper feeding techniques, or the benefits of skimmers as there are good threads on this subject all over this board. However, I will say that once phosphates are added to a tank, most of it stays there. It might be temporarily in a bacteria only to be released back into the water column to be taken up by algae or another bacteria. It's constantly in flux.

I tell people to add Kalk to precipitate the phosphates to solve algae problems. I stand 100% behind this recommendation and I do it myself. However, does this make the phosphates go away???

But what I really want to know, is adding the Phyto adding to my phosphates, well i guess the answer must be yes, but in what quantities. I'm sort of with RC on the thought that if the LIVE phyto is being taken out of the water either naturally or via the skimmer within an hour it can only be beneficial to the tank ..... but hey, I'm far from any type of expert.

I can't deal with this one at the moment as I have some work to get done and I have to hit the road by 7 am. As I mentioned previously, just about EVERYTHING is adding phosphates to your tank. Water (if it isn't RO/DI water), salt mixes, foods, and many other additives.

yours by far has been the best and most amusing description i've yet read. I just thought it was whether they had a caron atom attached to them !!!!

Just a simple explanation from a simple mind. Now wait for the people who are a lot smarter than me come and correct my mistakes.

(Gina---as DGASMD mentioned, a skimmer doesn't care whether the phyto is alive or dead and will pull both out of the water. If your tank feeding routine involves phyto, I would turn off the skimmer for an hour).