Lionfish Decimating Tropical Fish Populations, Threatening Coral Reefs

[SubRosa]

Queens do what they want to.Lionfish entering the Caribbean will change things.So what?This situation reminds me of a program I saw on Snakeheads.Some moron from the Virginia Dept of Fisheries was telling all about how the evil Snakeheads will hurt populations of native fish like Largemouth Bass and Rainbow Trout.The only problem is that neither of those fish are native to VA in the first place.They were introduced by man.Did they change the delicate balance of nature when they were introduced?You're damn right they did!But is it really that bad?I don't know as I wasn't around to enjoy the environment before that happened.But I do know that I greatly enjoy our present aquatic environment.Different isn't necessarily bad.The main point is that the sky is not falling, the Caribbean will be fine in spite of a population of Lionfish.By the way you do know that Queen Triggers, Queen and Blue Angels, Lookdowns and assorted Butterflies all come up into New England on the Gulf Stream along with the Lions.And they all die every October.Your dismissive attitude towards statements you don't agree with is hardly the mark of a true scientist.

[SubRosa]

This whole situation is very interesting.Boomer has "proof" that the problem traces back to several individuals while Frankie has "proof" that it was a ballast release of a multitude of individuals.Somebody's so full of it their eyes are brown.I wonder................

John

[lcstorc]

There is nothing that says it couldn't have happened both ways.
Personally I have no clue and don't think it really matters. It happened regardless and time has shown us that when a non native species is introduced it frequently if not always causes problems. Now to what degree is another question but ask anybody in Georgia if Kudzo should have been introduced and you will see an example of how bad it can get and that is just a nuisance not a survival issue.

[Boomer]

Ah, I never said the sky is falling. Try not to make things up as you go along to suit you

You need to reframe yourself form post hole digging


By the way you do know that Queen Triggers, Queen and Blue Angels, Lookdowns and assorted Butterflies all come up into New England on the Gulf Stream along with the Lions.And they all die every October. Your dismissive attitude towards statements you don't agree with is hardly the mark of a true scientist.

Where in my post did I say this is not happening. Go back a re-read my first post to you. Here let me help you I think your comments are **mostly** nonsense. It would appear that you are the one that is really more dismissive or maybe I should say demised.

This whole situation is very interesting.Boomer has "proof" that the problem traces back to several individuals while Frankie has "proof" that it was a ballast release of a multitude of individuals. Somebody's so full of it their eyes are brown.I wonder................

More of you nonsense and trying to confuse the issue. And what does that have to do with anything. The Lionfish did not fall from the sky did they So we know who is really full of it. Frankie only stated that Lions have been seen in ballasts. They may have come from ballasts and maybe not. I'll tell you this, a fact, that many, many hobbyist release their fish in the wild. Many south American fish did not end up in southern US lakes and steams by falling from the sky or ballasts from boats....SORRY

Queens do what they want to

Go back a re-read you own posts. You are saying in so many words that Queens will go after Lions for food or will go after them in the wild. It won't happen and is nonsense. They both would be living in a different niche with little or no competition between themselves. If anything, Lions' will eat their young not the other way around. I have kept Lion's and Queens in the same tank with no issue. Same for Lions and Clown triggers, which are much more aggressive than any Queen's and Clowns with Groupers. You will seen the smaller more aggressive fish like Damsels creating more issues.


Lynn

Kudzo should have been introduced

Funny you should say that, because that would be one of my examples along with rabbits in Australia.

[SubRosa]

Sorry if I confuse you Boomer.I'll try to use smaller words next time!And just how am I confusing things?I merely pointed out that you said one thing and someone else said something completely different.By point of logic it is the people who say something confusing, and not the person who points out the confusion that cause confusion.WHEW!!!Try a little of the logic you use in chemistry when you post and we all may benefit.

John

[SubRosa]

Lynn I kind of agree with you that how it happened doesn't matter, but if the ecological apocalypse that some chemists think will happen does happen there will be recriminations.Then it will matter very much when they decide who to punish, the shipping industry or the aquarium trade.

John

[lcstorc]

Guess I am just strange then. In all areas I am much more concerned with fixing a problem than assigning blame. I believe the world would be much better if more people lived that way.
Boomer,
Living in Florida the Kudzo thing is pretty close. In fact when I drive to Atlanta in a couple of weeks I will see tons of it on the way. Can't wait to get to Atlanta though.

[Frankie]

First of all, I don't need to prove anything to anyone. Feel blessed I took the time to share some knowledge with you in the first place. If you want to know more about what I say then Google it. There is plenty of info on the net if you take the time to look yourself.
Her is an excerpt from a very reliable source:
The ballast water of large ocean going vessels is a documented means of dispersal for non-native marine and estuarine organisms, including fishes. Commercial vessels that anticipate traversing rough open seas often fill their ballast tanks with water to increase stability, only to release the water from these enormous containers upon arrival at their destination. In this way, many marine organisms have been transported to new areas. Given the planktonic nature of larval red lionfish or the fact that the species is purported to occur in some harbors, some speculate that it is not unreasonable to surmise that the species has gained a foothold on the U.S. east coast via ballast water transport.
Follow this link if you care to read more. Florida Museum of Natural History Ichthyology Department: Red Lionfish
A few more:
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/educati...ds/student.pdf
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Atlantic Lionfish???
I am surprised at what a shambles this thread turned into. If we don't stick to the topic i am going to close it.
I am still pretty sure James documented this also but I have wasted enough of my time on the subject. If you care to learn more please follow this link.Google

[SubRosa]

Frankie if you go back and reread the original thread in which you referred to the ballast hypothesis you'll see that I agree with you as to the probable origin of the fish.For some reason Boomer has an insect where the sun don't shine and I'm enjoying every second of it.But you must agree that from a logical point of view that if two statements contradict each other then one must be false.That is the main point I tried to make that was apparently so confusing.

John

[Travis]

Originally Posted by SubRosa

Sorry if I confuse you Boomer.I'll try to use smaller words next time!

Originally Posted by SubRosa

For some reason Boomer has an insect where the sun don't shine and I'm enjoying every second of it.

These are personal attacks and will not be tolerated. Consider yourself warned.

If you can't carry on a debate without resorting to this kind of behavior then perhaps you should find somewhere else to debate.

[mps9506]

I don't think it really matters where the lionfish originated from, it wouldn't be all that surprising if it was multiple sources.

.By the way you do know that Queen Triggers, Queen and Blue Angels, Lookdowns and assorted Butterflies all come up into New England on the Gulf Stream along with the Lions.And they all die every October.

FWIW the NC Aquarium collectors and plenty of divers here have documented with photos juvenile lions and lions year around inhabiting the wrecks off the SE NC coast (The water at the wrecks typically dip into the high 50's low 60's, while inshore waters will dip into the upper-mid 40's). I'm not sure who if anyone is studying the impacts however. I'm sure some grad student will start undertaking something

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by mps9506

I don't think it really matters where the lionfish originated from, it wouldn't be all that surprising if it was multiple sources.



FWIW the NC Aquarium collectors and plenty of divers here have documented with photos juvenile lions and lions year around inhabiting the wrecks off the SE NC coast (The water at the wrecks typically dip into the high 50's low 60's, while inshore waters will dip into the upper-mid 40's). I'm not sure who if anyone is studying the impacts however. I'm sure some grad student will start undertaking something

I have no doubt that it's multiple sources. I also need to do some reading up on there breeding behaviors and how easy it is for them to populate an area.
I wonder also about other possibilities on how they suddenly popped up on the radar like this. A smuggling ship that went down could have dumped hundreds off our shores and no one would know about it.
I have also seen an influx in the amount lfs carry. They tend to be juveniles also. Just some food for thought~

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Frankie

I have also seen an influx in the amount lfs carry. They tend to be juveniles also. Just some food for thought~

This goes for most LFS's though regardless of location. The small 3-5" lions sell much faster than the larger ones, and they are easier to handle. One large 12" lion might require a half box or full box all to itself and lots of water ship. You can fit at least a dozen 3-5" lions in a box and have more profit potential. Probably less water weight and cheaper to ship as well.
When the unwary customer ends up with a 4" lion that turns into a foot long one and they need to move and the LFS has no room that's when they end up in the ICW, or local sound. Fisherman catch all kinds of interesting critters from the piers here in the summer.

[Witfull]

indo butterflies under the boardwalks in Asbury Park NJ.

[fatman]

For those who did not notice, the link provided by Boomer contains the line I entered in my reply about Lionfish in ballasts tanks. Perhaps I should have put it in quotes and given credit to Boomer for posting a link that contained the statement I copied word for word and posted in my reply.

There really is no argument unless Boomer is now recanting his posted thread.

Once agin here is the exact text from the link provided by Boomer.

Means of Introduction: At least six lionfish were liberated into Biscayne Bay when a beach-side aquarium broke during Hurricane Andrew in August 1992 (Courtenay 1995). The most probable explanation for the arrival of the lionfish population in the Atlantic Ocean is via the aquarium trade (Whitfield et al. 2002; Semmens et al. 2004). It is also possible that lionfish may have been transported through ballast water of ships travelling from the Pacific Ocean.



Here is the link again:

NAS - Species FactSheet