Can anybody ID this ailment?

[TenUhC]

Here is my sick Bluespot Jawfish





And here is my sick Mandarin





Please keep in mind these 2 fish have shown these symptoms about a week to a week and a half after I got them home and it has gotten slowly but progressively worse over a period of 3 weeks. These fish are voracious eaters and show no other signs of distress other than the spots, which move and disappear and reappear in a matter of hours. Except for the BSJF whose spots are more permanent now.

[Woodstock]

It appears to be a disease(brooklynella or ammyloodinium) that should be treated in a hospital tank immediately. All fish should be removed for treatement whether they are showing signs or not. During their treatments,, your main display should remain fallow (fish free) for at least eight weeks to starve the parasite to death.
The mandarin appears very thin. Try to feed it thawed mysis.

A Fish Quarantine Process - Step by Step
Stocking the Marine Fish Medicine Cabinet
Formalin Treatment for Marine Fishes
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

[leebca]

I replied to the posting of these photos in the other thread you put them in: I have a pandemic going on here.

I'll repeat what I wrote here:
I have not read through this entire thread [linked above], so I may not in fact have all the information. I am going by the photos I see only. Although, one of the earlier posts had a question about Melafix and Pimafix. You'll get information about them, here:
Melafix & Pimafix - Why they work and don't work

From the photos I see:
1. Fish that are not properly nourished;
2. Fin structure that is torn and uneven, suggesting water quality or bacterial infection or both;
3. What appears to be a mixture of bacterial infections on the surface/skin. Unfortunately, one of them may be a Vibrio sp. of bacteria. It eats skin. It is also very infectious.

Not sure you can save the fish, because of 1. However, if properly treated, the fish will recover IF they have enough energy reserve and nutrition to repair themselves. The fish would need to be moved to a quarantine tank where they will be given antibiotic that is particularly good for topical infections. I would recommend an antibiotic that contains Nitrofurazone (Furan-2), Nifurpirinol (a nitrofuran antibiotic, or one of the following: furanace or furanase

Good luck!

-----------

I would now add to the above that the curing of fish with these kinds of bacteria can be difficult IF it is truly a Vibrio sp. Ideally, the bacteria would be identified for choosing the best antibiotic to fight it.

[BigAl07]

Thanks Lee We appreciate ALL that you do to help us.

Allen

[TenUhC]

Yes Thank you Lee. I do have a few questions regarding set-up of a hospital tank. I read the step by step guide you wrote in the stickies. Let me tell you my set-up and you tell me if it's good. I have a 10 gallon tank with a light hood just for my preference. I have a 50 watt heater, a thermometer, a Hang on the back Filter, and no substrate. I just got it filled with fresh saltwater tonight. I read in the step-by-steb that I need a sponge filter or something that will hold Nitrifying bacteria to run in my DT for 6-8 weeks. Then move the sponge to the QT, but this will not work for the fish sickness I have now. I could put the fresh water in a couple buckets and move 10 gallons from the DT if you think that is best.

Also where can I get the Fish anti-biotics you mentioned earlier. My LFS is not very big and I hoped to find some on the Internet. Thanx for your help.

Matt

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by TenUhC

Yes Thank you Lee. I do have a few questions regarding set-up of a hospital tank. I read the step by step guide you wrote in the stickies. Let me tell you my set-up and you tell me if it's good. I have a 10 gallon tank with a light hood just for my preference. I have a 50 watt heater, a thermometer, a Hang on the back Filter, and no substrate. I just got it filled with fresh saltwater tonight. I read in the step-by-steb that I need a sponge filter or something that will hold Nitrifying bacteria to run in my DT for 6-8 weeks. Then move the sponge to the QT, but this will not work for the fish sickness I have now. I could put the fresh water in a couple buckets and move 10 gallons from the DT if you think that is best.

Also where can I get the Fish anti-biotics you mentioned earlier. My LFS is not very big and I hoped to find some on the Internet. Thanx for your help.

Matt

That would defeat the point, wouldn't it? You need to get them out of the DT because the water there contains whatever bacteria/parasite these fish have. And the water itself isn't the source the nitrifying bacteria...that is in things like filter media, substrate, live rocks, etc...which is why you need the sponge. I don't really think you'd be able to set up a QT tank on the fly which is why it should be one of the first things set up when starting a tank. Do you know anyone who has a QT already set up that they might let you use?

[leebca]

You can start with DT water, but once a water change is needed, only new saltwater can be used.

Using old DT water unfortunately has no real advantage, other than you get to use some of the water.

Since the biological filter is not running, you'll need to keep changing water (over 80%) every time you detect ammonia and/or nitrites. The outside filter should eventually seed with bacteria, but I still like the sponge best. The outside filter will be mostly mechanical in nature and cleaning out frequently, disturbing the biological filter each time.

[TenUhC]

Well for the future. The Hang on back Filter has a cartridge that I Could keep in the filtration area of my DT until needed. And I don't mind the Sponge filter you suggest, I'm just not sure I know what that is.

Thanx

So I should move the Fish now or just hope the Melafix/ PimaFix treatment works, and be better prepared for the new QT process in the future?

[leebca]

Melafix and Pimafix have never cured Vibrio sp. bacterial infections to the best of my knowledge. Since I believe that may be at least one of the bacteria at work, I would stop that treatment, move the fish into quarantine, and begin the antibiotic treatment.

An example of a sponge filter:
Lustar Hydro-Sponge Filter 1 at Big Al's Online

There are others. Even more simple is the corner filter where the sponge is in the shape of a triangle and fits into a corner.

[TenUhC]

Sorry for being slow, but You suggest using the DT water and move the ailing fish asap? Then what kind of medicine should I buy? Also how often should I do the 80% WC?

[Woodstock]

Originally Posted by leebca

.................................................. .................................................. .... The fish would need to be moved to a quarantine tank where they will be given antibiotic that is particularly good for topical infections. I would recommend an antibiotic that contains Nitrofurazone (Furan-2), Nifurpirinol (a nitrofuran antibiotic, or one of the following: furanace or furanase

Good luck!

-----------

I would now add to the above that the curing of fish with these kinds of bacteria can be difficult IF it is truly a Vibrio sp. Ideally, the bacteria would be identified for choosing the best antibiotic to fight it.

[Woodstock]

Originally Posted by leebca

You can start with DT water, but once a water change is needed, only new saltwater can be used.

Using old DT water unfortunately has no real advantage, other than you get to use some of the water.

Since the biological filter is not running, you'll need to keep changing water (over 80%) every time you detect ammonia and/or nitrites. The outside filter should eventually seed with bacteria, but I still like the sponge best. The outside filter will be mostly mechanical in nature and cleaning out frequently, disturbing the biological filter each time.

[TenUhC]

Alright here is the latest update and questions. I went on Fosters and smith tonight and ordered up some medicinal goodies for this problem and future problems, hopefully there won't be any, but I'll be better prepared next time. I ordered some Maracyn-Two powders, Furan-2 powders, E.M. Erythromycin, and some antibiotic Fish food for good measure. My reasoning for so many was I had/have questions about the possible Vibrio Sp. diagnoses. I know it's hard to make a diagnoses based on a couple of pictures, but I did some internet research about Vibrio Sp. and feel that I don't have many of the symptoms. I read from more than one place that the Vibrio Sp. sores are usually red in color. Also there is usually a loss of appetite. The mandarin in particular doesn't meet either of those 2 symptoms also the jawfish eats anything you put in front of him. There was also talk of Fin and tail problems, but once again most descriptions included reddening of those areas. Nada on both fishes. I understand that diagnoses are very hard to ID, but is there something else that this may be, and Would the Furan-2 antibiotics cover the largest spectrum of none Vibrio SP. bacterium? Also I believe my water quality is good. Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, and Nitrates <5. I do weekly and never more than bi-weekly water changes. Good ph most of the time, it runs a little high sometimes 8.5 to 8.55. Calcium and Alkalinity 450 + and 8-9 dkH. Top-off water and New salt water come from RO system that has an inline TDS meter. It reads<2ppm at all times. I also have 2 clams and many shrimps which would suffer badly under bad water quality. If I'm missing something please let me know. As far as the under nourishment issues mentioned by Leebca. I'm not sure if that describes me, Daily I feed a mixture of Frozen brine, mysis, spiruline (sorry for spelling). Also I alternating red, and brown algae in a clip for my tang and other vegi lovers. I add live Tiggerpods Bi-Monthly. I also on a 3 day rotation dose night 1 Phytopheast, night 2 oysterfeast, night 3 articpods, repeat, that is mostly for the filter feeders and corals. This is one of the reasons I am suspicious of cyanide poisoning. I've heard the fish can eat and eat and not be able to get nourishment from the food.

[BLAKEJOHN]

The manderine is probly malnurished because 1)they are hard to keep fed,
2) the six line and the manderine share the same food source. The six line is faster and will eat the manderins food before it can even find it.
3) the tank is really too new (@ 3 months, 5 months if you include the time from the 130)to be able to sustain the mandrines diet even if you fed the tank a bottle of live copepods daily.

Just my opinion and experience.

[leebca]

The reddening you've described relates to systemic infections. What I see is a topical infection. The antibiotics I listed are about the best the hobbyist can buy for the treatment of most infections, although Vibrio sp. infections are, as I mentioned before, hard to cure.

The pH indicates that the alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium are not in balance. For info on the proper balance and how to bring them into balance, take a look at this post: What Is Water Quality? In this post you'll be alerted to other 'things' that matter in water quality, beyond the tests you perform.

Marine life forms, despite what we think of them, adjust to poor water quality and do manage in it. The fact that they are alive is not always an accurate evaluation of water quality. But look closely at the marine life. Like in the Mandarin's case, its fins are ratty. Something is not right -- food or environment or water quality. If all was right, the fins would be full, filled in and the fish would be of the optimum weight.

Can't go through all the food info, but first you should read this: Feeding Marine Fish and Marine Fish Nutrition

Next, I want you to read this to understand how/why feeding the same foods and even pods, to a pod eater can be a slow death:
Pod Eaters -OR - Momma Don't Feed Me No Balogna

In the case of the Mandarin, the problem might even include an intestinal parasite.

I don't write the above to suggest you are not a good hobbyist. In fact from your posts I'd say you are more advanced than most hobbyists. But now is the time to expand upon your understandings of nutrition and water quality -- to see the fine points to longevity in marine life forms in captive life.

Good luck!