Shuddering...and... when to start treatment

[dionysusjg]

Hi all... Yesterday, I bought 3 new fish from St George Aquariums in Sydney.
I have already seen 2 of them flashing against the PVC in my quarantine tank. I'm just wondering at what point should I start treatment for ich. Should I wait for outward manifestations ie white spots, or shall I take the flashing as enough evidence.

Also, the chaetodon auriga, or threadfin butterfly has been 'shuddering', the way we do when we get a sudden chill ("someone walked over my grave"). Anyone know what would cause this?

[leebca]

It doesn't sound like you're following the recommendations given here for quarantine: A Fish Quarantine Process - Step by Step

Hopefully I'm wrong and all the fishes are being quarantined separately.

There are many diseases and ailments which cause irritation of the gills which result in flashing. Also, a flash every few minutes is normal. In order to sort out what to do, other symptoms need to be observed. OR if the place these fishes came from are a known infected system, then treatment should begin immediately. We only prefer the use of one of these two treatments here in the States, but I'm unsure if you can obtain Cupramine (should you decide to perform a copper treatment): A Hyposalinity Treatment Process
and
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

Before you leap at the diagnosis of Marine Ich, please read this if you haven't already: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

All fish have got to go through acclimation properly, so I'm unsure if these have followed those recommendations: It was Acclimation, I know. . .

The shuddering is a result of sub-standard acclimation, disease, and/or injury.

Watch the fish very closely. Inspect them a few times a day very closely. Be prepared to do a Marine Ich treatment.

[dionysusjg]

Thanks lee.
I must admit my acclamatising was a little fast, and no, all 3 new fish are quarantined together as they were from the same tank originally, and i dont have the facilities for 3 seperate quarantines.
I have seen all 3 eat since arriving in my tank, which is good.

I have just finished a quarantine/HT treatment for ich for my existing fish (which are all back in the DT now, Ich free), so I am familiar with the treatment regime (using cupramine), and am ready to do so if needed.
I noticed that article you sent me on acclimation suggested immediate copper treatement for all Acanthurus. One of the new fish is a hippo tang. Shall I do this? Also, do you recommend doing the freshwater dip as part of a general quarantine/acclimation regime? Can you please recommend any articles on this procedure. (the one in the article you sent requires membership to another site.)

cheers

[leebca]

Thanks for catching that link error. That link has been corrected. The link should be to: Freshwater Dip Process

The Hippo Tang is not a Tang of the Acanthurus Genus. No treatment unless something shows itself.

I recommend a FW dip on all newly acquired marine fishes on their way into the QT. That would be once they are acclimated to the QT water, into the dip, then into the QT.

[dionysusjg]

Doesn't that negate the idea of acclimating them? I mean, you're getting them used to the tank water, lowering them into water that is nothing like the tank water, and then back into the tank water? Why bother acclimating them to the qt water in the first place?

Also... in my case, I didn't dip, and they are already in the qt. Shall I dip them now, or just remember this for next time?

cheers

[leebca]

The FW itself is pH and temperature matched to the QT water. The 'loss of salinity' is a minimal stress which is compensated in part by the Methylene Blue. It works.

Dip them on their way into the display tank. Again the FW is pH and temperature matched to the DT water, which the fish should be acclimated to at that time.

[dionysusjg]

Thanks mate.... as an update, all fish are eating well, however the threadfin butterfly is still flashing a bit, and has a very distinct and fairly constant 'twitch' which i'm a bit concerned about. He is eating blood-worms with a healthy appetite, so I'm not sure what I should do at this point. Any suggestions?

[leebca]

All you can say for sure at this point is that something is irritating its gills. This can be pathogen, parasite, or chemically induced. Best to observe closely and look for other symptoms.

In general, if no other symptom manifests itself in a couple of weeks and the flashing continues (assuming pristine water quality), then you may assume a gill parasite or infection and treat accordingly. Thus, the reason for such a long quarantine process.

Blood worms are a good food to accommodate a stubborn eater, but they are land food and not suitable for marine fish in the long run. Be sure to read up on feeding marine fishes: Feeding Marine Fish and Marine Fish Nutrition
and
Different Forms of Marine Fish Foods

[dionysusjg]

Thanks lee... I will try and get him onto other things. The other fish in the QT are eating the brine shrimp, but the threadfin eats them, then spits them back out again. I am out of mysis shrimp, but will try them shortly.

[dionysusjg]

Hi Lee, Its day 3 and he's still flashing and twitching substantially. Still eating well however (still only bloodworms though!)
If he's still flashing in a few days and we assume it is either a gill parasite or infection, which treatments should I undertake? From what I gather a parasite treatment is different to a standard infection treatment.

thanks in advance.

[leebca]

You are about to understand one of the few reasons why fish are separated for QT. Even if they come from the same source, in the exact same tank, they are not always carrying the same parasites, diseases, or maladies.

The fish needs a treatment for potential parasites. About the best treatment contains organophosphates. However, they are very harsh chemicals.

Before going there, perform a FW bath according to these recommendations: Freshwater Dip Process

After the bath, put the fish in a separate, new QT with the same water conditions as the QT the fish came from. Then observe for a few more days.

[dionysusjg]

yeah... thats where things become difficult! I don't have the 'infrustructure' for a second quarantine/hospital tank. After the FW bath, he's going to have to go back in the same qt as the other 2 fish, so if i have to medicate, its going to have to be all 3, unfortunately.

what is the medication I should use for parasites? I have cuprimine, but thats only affective for ich and flukes I believe.
If nothing falls out in the fw dip shall I still treat for parasites?

Also if the shuddering and flashing stops in the next few days, does that mean the fish DOESN'T have parasites? I wouldn't want to go through a 6-8 wk quarantine with the fish 'enduring' the parasites, only to introduce them to my DT anyway.

cheers

[leebca]

The use of Fluke-Tabs or such product would by my choice. However, if they are flukes, it could mean a 10-week incubation time and if you put the fish back in with other contaminated fishes, the treatment will not be successful. Treating ass the fishes, because of your setup, will mean almost three months before they make it to the display system.

The fish will need to be kept separate for no less than 10-weeks after this treatment to verify they are cured. Some of these parasites can 'hand around' and are very persistent. Still most of my colleagues agree that 10-weeks will address most of them (unless you can obtain a specific identification of what is infecting the fish).

Yes. I would estimate that if the fish stops these actions shortly, I would say the greatest likelihood is that the fish is reacting to a poison(s) in the water and/or a bad acclimation.

[dionysusjg]

Ok... thanks. Well I'll give it another week and see how we go. I think it may have been bad acclimation, as I was a bit rushed that day. From the reputation of the LFS I'm doubting it is flukes, but I'll keep an eye out regardless.

thanks for the advice, I'll update in a fews days time!