Oh, Clowns woke up Icky Today!

[leebca]

The fish shows visible signs of deterioration. Ratty fins and a missing fine details. It is having trouble with something. From the first photo, I would say it best matches Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). The coming and going of spots is typical of this parasite. Even not seeing spots doesn't mean it is cured or that other fish aren't infected. The parasite 'prefers' to infect the gills. Still, you need to make the diagnosis.

If it is Marine Ich:
All fish need treatment and the aquarium left fishless for 8 weeks at least. You'll get a lot of info from this post on Marine Ich: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

If you choose to treat with a copper medication, the tank can be used again to quarantine or keep invertebrates if the tank is properly cleaned to remove copper. Copper attaches to the glass and plastic in such low quantities that it won't register on copper test kits, but it will be high enough in concentration to adversely affect many invertebrates. Fortunately there is a cleaning procedure to remove most of this 'attached' copper. You can follow the cleaning procedure found here: Tank Cleanup Procedures

For copper and hyposalinity treatments first read these before choosing the way you want to go:
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems
and
A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

If you need help setting up a quarantine tank (hospital tank) then this will help with that:
A Fish Quarantine Process - Step by Step

I would add that the size of the aquarium you've chosen for these fish is smaller than they should have.

Good luck!

[plecosword]

wow thanks! The ratty thing you are talking about is probably because they were bitting each ther when fighting.
so does this mean I have ick?

[leebca]

Well. . .You had some questions about bubbles. The spots on the first photo do not look like bubbles to me. They look liked raised areas, pushing the skin out. That is Marine Ich's visual symptom. After that symptom, other symptoms (flashing, breathing fast, lethargic, etc.) are varied and circumstantial.

[plecosword]

Hey you live here in so CA?
I thought they had ick a long time ago and it whent away.

[leebca]

I live in the Inland Empire. Marine Ich doesn't go away. It lives off of healthy and sick fishes alike, usually in the gills. You should read the post about Marine Ich Myths.

[plecosword]

The thing is im not sure if I ever Had Ick. so this marine parasite related at all to the Freshwater ick? they have a lot of things in common, Great Post!
Ive had this question for a long time!
The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish).
so I will need to quarantine them. my 10g has a glass heater, powerfilter, and 30watt florecent hood.
for threatment one I will need a refractometer and lower the salinity?
i rather stay away from the copper treatment. and I liked 3 the best, but I don't have that kinda space. Should I wait to see if I see it tomorrow morning again? maybe turning of the skimmer.


"Treatments:

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish. See: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...t-process.html

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong. See: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...-problems.html

3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

4. Only the above 3 known cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

[rmlevasseur]

If silicone doesnt absorb copper then why does it turn blue?

Plec, those are definitely sick fish, and like it or not its in your tank now and will likely appear them moment the animals are stressed. Fix it now while the fish are still strong.

[leebca]

If hyposalinity is your choice, then I would recommend you proceed on that threatment path just as soon as you can.

I'll try to address your questions and concerns. If I miss something or you want more information about any particular point or what I post, please don't hesitate to ask.

This parasite is not related to freshwater ich at all. Freshwater ich is technically the parasite Ichthyophthirius multifilis. This is where the "ich" and its spelling came from. When white spots were seen on marine fish, it looked like freshwater ich, but it was soon learned not only was it not the same parasite, but this marine parasite was much more resiliant and 'tougher' than the freshwater parasite. What affects one may not affect the other at all. Because of this visual similarity, many rumors and mis-information has spread in the hobby about Marine Ich. Other than this short-lived visual similarity, the two are different and unique organisms. Believe what I've written, not what you've 'heard' or seen other hobbyists post in general discussions.

Powerfilter in the quarantine tank may not be in the best interest of the fishes. Too often an ill or fish being treated gets caught in the intake of such filters. Best to use a simple bubble, sponge filter. Most LFSs have them in stock.

As mentioned above, proceed with the treatment on all fishes as soon as you can.

[plecosword]

I can't thank you enough Lee. I believe you, my clowns are definatly icky, im starting to see spots on the other one!!! I cleared my 10g yesterday. I still have to find a place for all the guppies and shrimp. acually, found a place for him. so it will go like this?

will fill the 10g with 20% to 40% of water from 20g
power filter is too weak to suck up fish (about 100gph)
um salinity?

[lcstorc]

Keep in mind all of your fish need treatment and the display must be left fishless for at least 8 weeks. Also quarrantine and treat all new fish or you will just re-introduce the parasite to your system.

[leebca]

Follow the guidelines in this post: A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

[plecosword]

Ok I will probably go with the hyposalinity. I created a poll,
Treating Marine Ich
the ph will go insane, I have API PH up and PH down, should I not use them at all?

[plecosword]

salinity: 1.015
Ph: 7.8 (same)

[plecosword]

salinity: 16ppt
Ph: 7.8

So far no hard breading or sign of stress. they eat like crazy

[lcstorc]

Be sure to bring the salinity down slowly.