Unknown Sickness

[leebca]

I think I have a very good picture of the events. Thanks for the extensive and thorough recap. Very helpful.

A key step missed (as you noted) was holding the fish in quarantine for verification that the original treatment was successful.

Some deviations from the 'norm' include:
1. A possible longer-than-necessary time in hypo;
2. A longer time in copper than necessary;
3. A deficient diet during quarantine (when the fish need the best they can get to recover and repair)
4. Exposure to poisons (ammonia and nitrites -- even low quantities can harm fish in a chronic way; higher concentrations harm in an acute way)
5. Amquel is not a product to control ammonia in an ammonia-producing scenario -- it is used to correct tap water ammonia and contamination in order to make that water suitable as a source water.

Something noteworthy: With so many water changes in the QT (this is good) the difference between the QT water and display water would be a significant amount of proteins in the display system. This difference, along with added bacteria in the display water column (not found in the QT water) is very good cause for some damaged fish or even healthy fish to display an 'irritated' behavior.

I would estimate here that the Marine Ich was not hiding in their gills after the treatments. I suspect the fish were cured and Marine Ich free. I suspect instead their gills have become damaged by the treatments and without a high nutritional foundation to fall back upon, couldn't repair themselves effectively. The time for the best diet is when they are stressed by illness and/or injury.

After putting them back into the display the first time (assuming they were verified healthy in the quarantine holding period for verification) and still flashing and acting irritated, I would have recommended they stay in the display on a much better diet to see if they, in fact, didn't stop their irritation behavior. I think this may be the best thing to do at this time. Provide the best nutrition you can and monitor their behavior over the new few weeks in the display.

Do large water changes (50%+) in the display instead of small changes, on a weekly basis for the next few weeks.

The only unique features of your mush is that it contains mussel and shrimp. Otherwise they are foods that are prepared and can be fed without blending. This makes the mush of little advantage over a prepared foods diet. If you're putting in vitamins and fats into the mush, no need to soak the food with supplements before feeding.

The above is my best recommendations with this information.

[Kirblit]

Originally Posted by leebca

Do large water changes (50%+) in the display instead of small changes, on a weekly basis for the next few weeks.

The only unique features of your mush is that it contains mussel and shrimp. Otherwise they are foods that are prepared and can be fed without blending. This makes the mush of little advantage over a prepared foods diet. If you're putting in vitamins and fats into the mush, no need to soak the food with supplements before feeding.

The above is my best recommendations with this information.

Would it be ok to do 2 25% changes every week (I normally do one 20% a week) because I don't want to shock my corals too much either.

What would you recommend be added to the mush? I have tried squid/cuddlefish before but my fish never really liked it and it was too tough for them. Would silversides be a good addition?

So to you it doesn't sound like any kind of pathologic condition that they have? I have been thinking the same thing because of the amount of time that they have been effected, a parasite would have overcome them by now wouldn't it, or at least make it self known by an outward sign of somekind?

What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of time in the DT before they may show improvement?

Is it normal for fish to scratch sometimes just because the have an "itch" like a person every once and a while at all? I only ask for future reference when QT other fish that I will obtain. Lets say a fish is seen scratching repeatedly over and over again, I would assume that it's sick, but how long before spots or some kind of real outward sign would present it self to the aquarist?

Thanks for your help, I guess at some point I would have added them back to the display anyhow just because I was running out of ideas. I just really don't like taking all of the rock/coral out to get the fish too often if I don't have to.

Thanks,
Kirby

[leebca]

The single large change removes a 50% of all the build ups. 2 x 25% is not the same. The target here is to get a major removal of build ups. You should have no problem with 'shock' if you perform a proper water change. Since this is a large water change, you want to follow the recommendations given here: How to Make a Safe Water Change for Marine Fish

The new saltwater should be like a fresh breeze to marine life, not a shock, unless your water quality has significantly deteriorated and the marine life has grown accustomed to the pollutants. I'm not thinking your water is that bad.

Home prepared foods start with a blender and liquefying everything. Then choosing a binding agent from the sea like Agar Agar (which is derived from sea kelp). The liquid is bound by the binder and sets up like a stiff Jell-O. You can thus 'sneak in' ingredients (like the squid, etc.) that otherwise the fish might turn down.

Homemade formulas are varied and customized to the fishes being fed. Just only put into it natural sea products; no land products (including products that contain land products); and whenever possible, whole foods. You should look through this post and get some ideas: Feeding Marine Fish and Marine Fish Nutrition

There are articles on the homemade food subject -- some present better formulas than others. If you get together a formula, you can post it in a new thread in this forum for me and others to review for you. Strive to living fresh seafoods where possible and be creative -- adding sea algae paste, spirulina powder, kelp powder, whole mussels, whole clams (that were alive), scallop, sea plankton, krill, etc. Also, just a side-note. . .It isn't just what you put in, but the quantity of each, so you'll want to plan out how much of each ingredient you will put into the formula.

Pathogens don't always show themselves to the human eye. Hence the need for diagnostic work involving taking fin clips, skin scrapings, and gill clips from living fish and looking at them under a microscope. So don't rule out a pathogen here.

What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of time in the DT before they may show improvement?

With the proper nutrition, the water changes as recommended and a proper environment (not overstocked or tank mate stressors) I would expect gills to heal within a month. The fish should reduce flashing and resume regular breathing in that time.

Healthy fish do flash (scratch) occasionally. My rule of thumb is that any more than 2-3 flashes an hour and there may be some concern. If 1 flash or more every two to five minutes, there is definitely a problem.

As noted above, pathogens don't always show themselves. Injured fish often flash too without any outward signs. Don't assume a pathogen because injury can also be the cause for flashing, amongst other things that 'irritate' (e.g., water quality, water pollution, water poisons, bacteria in the water column, etc.).

[Kirblit]

Ok, well I added my fish back into the DT yesterday and they look really good. My Kole tang is breathing 100% normal now, he is not darting around, his color has been good, his dorsal fin is always erect, and is swimming more normally. I'm pretty happy right now, but I hope it lasts.

I did notice my two clowns doing some flashing every so often that I really never noticed before in the QT but I'm assuming this is from the bacteria being higher in the DT like you said, and it was mostly around, or in their host Rhodactis Sp. mushrooms that they recognized again immediately so they may just be getting reacquainted. I did notice under the good lighting my clowns look a little "rough" more scaley than they did before, is this missing mucus, or just because they are much bigger than they were 9 months ago when I saw them under the lights .

The only other concern that I have is that my Kole Tang noticed my two cleaner shrimp about an hour ago that I added a few months ago to give the tank some movement, he has been requesting "service" from them. I would say for the last 45 minutes or so he has been going over there about every 5 minutes for about 30-45 seconds. Is this just because it's a natural thing for him to do because he is wild caught, a little stressed, and maybe the bacteria are bothering him too? It just makes me a little worried, but I haven't ever had cleaner shrimp before so maybe this is normal, and he is just enjoying the moment. My clowns haven't been cleaned, they are tank raised and I don't think they really know what to make of the shrimp yet, but that hasn't stopped the shrimp from sneaking up on them once and a while.

Wish me luck,
Kirby

[leebca]

To address a couple of your concerns. . .

When a captive fish keeps requesting cleaning in my experience, it means they are irritated. The irritated fish can't tell whether or not the cleaner will help, but it does drive them to the cleaner.

Keep a close watch on the Anemonefish. Their exterior should be smooth. See if it worsens or improves with time. Perform those large water changes and use the highest quality of source water you can obtain/afford. Clean up all excess detritus and remove as much waste as you can. If there is a considerable amount of waste/dirt, then remove it slowly, over the time of a couple of weeks or more.

Good luck!

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the outcome. Not very pleasant for you nor the fish. Don't beat yourself up on this. Many people, turned on by the Disney movies, have gotten the idea that it would be nice to have a mated pair of Anemonefish, only to find out that their relationship isn't so 'sweet.' What begins as as good idea for children and/or a child learning experience, turns into a display of one of Nature's more ruthless and violent examples of a relationship!

[Kirblit]

Originally Posted by leebca

To address a couple of your concerns. . .

When a captive fish keeps requesting cleaning in my experience, it means they are irritated. The irritated fish can't tell whether or not the cleaner will help, but it does drive them to the cleaner.

Keep a close watch on the Anemonefish. Their exterior should be smooth. See if it worsens or improves with time. Perform those large water changes and use the highest quality of source water you can obtain/afford. Clean up all excess detritus and remove as much waste as you can. If there is a considerable amount of waste/dirt, then remove it slowly, over the time of a couple of weeks or more.

Good luck!

That makes me feel a lot better. He seemed to stop going to them as much about an hour after I posted, I guess we will see.

I will try to get a pic of the clowns when the lights come on so that you can see them as well. I will be performing a large change today as you said. I use RO/DI for all water in the tanks produced from my water it's 0 TDS before the DI and I change the filters every 6 months or earlier depending on gallons used. I will siphon out as much as I can, the tank is already very clean (it's an SPS dominated tank) and it has been fishless for so long there isn't much to vacuum out but I will get all that there is. Thanks for all the advice, and my fish appreciate it as well.

[Kirblit]

Originally Posted by leebca

Sorry to hear of the outcome. Not very pleasant for you nor the fish. Don't beat yourself up on this. Many people, turned on by the Disney movies, have gotten the idea that it would be nice to have a mated pair of Anemonefish, only to find out that their relationship isn't so 'sweet.' What begins as as good idea for children and/or a child learning experience, turns into a display of one of Nature's more ruthless and violent examples of a relationship!

I think this was destined for another thread .

[leebca]

Yes it was. Sorry.