Cupramine Treatment Mystery

[Kirblit]

I started the Cupramine two days ago, but I have a couple of questions.

I did the first dose 16 drops per 10.5 gallons and I figured that I have about 43 gallons of water in my tank when taking measurements. So I put in 64 drops and tested it about 3 hours later just to see and it was about .1 and it should have been .25. I also went to an LFS to have them test and they got the same results as me with a different kit. So I added 32 and tested and then 32 more drops to finally get to .25. Is this normal? I should be at .5 now but it's .25ish. I will leave it here for two days before moving it up to .4 and keep testing to see what happens.

There is nothing in the tank that should be removing any copper. It's bare bottom and there is a powerhead, some PVC pipes for hiding, a couple of plastic caves for the tang, and foam filters. I just don't know why it didn't get higher than it is and I wanted to know if it's normal. This is the first time this tank has ever had any copper in it as well. The fish look good and don't show any signs of stress and are eating well.

[leebca]

I moved your post into its own thread, since I didn't see the connection to hyposalinity.

Cupramine is added in two stages. The first stage is to achieve a 1/2 or 50% of the total target concentration of copper. This is so the fish will be able to acclimate to the copper increase in the water. The next dose brings the concentration into the right range. The directions on the medication say to add it twice.

As mentioned in other places/posts, carbonates affect copper concentration. That is why we don't put carbonate substrates, live rock, and corals (skeletons) in a treatment tank. However, keep in mind that saltwater itself contains carbonates. Some saltwater will affect the copper concentration read on a test kit just by virtue of the fact that the carbonates in the saltwater are 'masking' the copper.

In addition to the above, it is very important to use the correct copper test Kit (and even if using the proper one, making sure it has not expired). You didn't mention the one you use, but the only two I have found reliable and accurate to measure the copper in a Cupramine treatment are: Seachem and Salifert. Most complain that the Seachem Copper Test Kit is too hard to read, but most agree the Salifert Copper Test Kit is easy to use and it does measure the copper in Cupramine treatments accurately.

Lastly and very rare is that some equipment can absorb/remove copper from the water column, depending upon the materials used to make the equipment.

All the above assumes there are no carbonates in the system, no carbon or other absorbents, and no skimmer is being used in the hospital/treatment tank.

[Kirblit]

I'm using the Salifert kit and it's easy to read. There are no other source ofcarbonates in the tank besides what is in the water, no skimmer, just a hang on Aquaclear 110 with foam filters. So I should just add it until I reach .4 or so on the test, even though I have added more than it should have taken? I understand doing it slowly to let the fish and bacteria adjust to it and it's at about 1/2 dose right now (a little less than .25) and I will add the other half tomorrow which leaves it at two days at 1/2 strength.

[Kirblit]

Test kit expires 08/2009

[leebca]

Raise it up until you get it above 0.3 ppm, but less than 0.5

The source of why it is low should be investigated to your best ability. Are you sure you've got the right volume of water calculated properly? Are you sure you are measuring it out properly? Any chance the medication is old, outdated or ?

Good luck!

[Kirblit]

Originally Posted by leebca

Raise it up until you get it above 0.3 ppm, but less than 0.5

The source of why it is low should be investigated to your best ability. Are you sure you've got the right volume of water calculated properly? Are you sure you are measuring it out properly? Any chance the medication is old, outdated or ?

Good luck!

I'm a little worried to say the least about it. Last night I made a bucket of 2 gallons of just RO water and added 6 drops to it and let it mix.

Here are my Calculations:

16 drops per 10.5 gallons
16/10.5 = approx. 1.5 (so 1.5 drops per gallon for 1st dose and 3 drops per gallon for final dose)

Isn't this correct?

So I added 6 drops to the bucket of RO and let it mix for about and hour. In theory it should give a reading of about .5 or so. This way I could have something to compare it to. Nope it is a little below .25, this doesn't make any sense at all. I would think that there shouldn't be anything in the RO that would interfere with the copper at all so none should be absorbed ( I use I.O. in my QT tank and the DKH is like 12 so I thought this may have contributed, that is why I used just RO to get a solid reading). I have not added any extra to my tank as of yet due to uncertainty. I will try to produce a .5 reading in the bucket of RO first to see what it should look like. I have also had a LFS do tests with their Lemotte kit and they get the same results, so I don't know what is the prob right now.

[Woodstock]

Stop using drops to measure; instead use mL. Per the directions on the Cupramine bottle, the first dosage is 1 mL per 10.5 gallons; to be repeated in 48 hours. Final concentration should be .5 mg/l.

So... 2 ml Cupramine in 10.5 gallons saltwater will yield .5 mg/l.

Get a small (1 ml) syringe. I used a syringe that I think came from a test kit but I can't remember which one....

Once you complete the 2nd dose. Test 30 minutes later and very carefully (heading on the low side) add more Cupramine; Wait 30 minutes and repeat until you get a testing of .5 mg/l (or slightly below). My goal was a copper level of .3-.5 mg/l.

I used both Salifert and API copper test kits with success. I did not like the Seachem kit at all. At first I used both test kits until I was confident of the results. At times, I also got my husband to give me unbiased opinions as to what they read
You will get more confident with reading the results as you continue testing twice a day...for weeks

HTH

[Woodstock]

Also... I do not know if the test kits are for freshwater and saltwater. The ro/di might be skewing the results???
Try using 1 gallon of saltwater and see if that is any different...

[leebca]

Woodstock has covered the matter very well. Drop size varies depending upon how the dropper mechanism is held. Measure, don't drop.

Test kits are designed for the water they are intended to measure. A saltwater copper test kit measures copper in salt water, not copper in freshwater.

Repeat your experiment and this time use:
Saltwater
Measure out the medication accurately

There is still the possibility that the medication is 'off.'

[Kirblit]

Will do thanks guys, I will let you know of the results. I'm going to pick up the API test today just to help give another reading. The Salifert kit is intended for freshwater and saltwater with a PH of 7.5-9 but I will try again with saltwater instead. I think half of the problem is me second guessing the results too because I don't want to overdose.

[Kirblit]

Alright I did it with salt water in the bucket and used ML instead of drops and it's right at .5, now I have something to compare to besides the paper. I'm actually pretty close to what it should be, I would say the tank is about .3 so I will bring it up just a little more to like .4. After doing some calculations I know what each .1 ml raises it, at least close enough. This way I will have some room for error in both directions. Thank you both for all of your help. I'm still going to test it with the API kit just to make sure .

[Woodstock]

[Kirblit]

Everything has been going great so far and the fish seem much happier. The level has been a steady just under .5 for a week now.

[leebca]

Good. I hope it all works out for you and your fish.