Ich Immunity

[Paul B]

It has always interested me why some tanks are plagued with ich and others seem immune. Most of us know all about the Ich life cycle but I believe we are missing something. Many of us have tanks where we know ich is happily living but causing no harm while other tanks just can't seem to keep anything alive. I know when my tank was new I was one of those people who had to keep copper in there continousely. Now my fish, including so called "Ich Magnet" hippo tangs are immune. My theory is that very healthy fish in breeding condition rarely get ich although I don't know why. Ich is a paracite and not a "real" disease. It is not internal, not a bacteria or virus so our fishes immune systems should not be able to launch a defense. but somehow it does. To me it seems it would be like being immune from gun shots.
I know there are theories about an immunity or partial immunity but I really don't see how that is possable.
I know that either my tank conditions or "immunity" if you will repels ich infections but I also know that ich is alive and doing well in my tank.
I have many times introduced fish with ich into my tank and the fish will either die or get cured but never will it affect other fish. I wrote about this before and I bring it up again because last week I bought a Shark Nosed Gobi, that seemed healthy so introduced it into my tank. I do not quarantine and have not in many years (my tank is wierd so you should always quarantine)
After a few days I noticed that gobi was full of ich to the point that I knew it would be dead in the morning. I caught it and cured it with copper in another tank. None of the other fish have ich and I know from experience that they will not get it. The other six or so shark nosed gobies in the LFS from the same shipment died in the store.
Does this happen to anyone else? I personally thing it is either a tank condition or a general health factor.
Anyway it is something that I think about and it bothers me that I don't yet know the answer.
Take care.
Paul

[Kirblit]

Wow, talk about playing some Russian Roulette. I don't know how your other fish don't get it, but I guess if it works for you that is all that matters. I know that I'm on my second Hypo treatment for my fish because the first one didn't work because my tank got above 1.010. I hope to just get rid of it for good and not have to worry about it again because nothing will go in that tank without QT, and or Hypo. Just my .02

[Dentoid]

Immunity is a highly complex cellular mechanism that is not isolated to internal tissues. Skin has a highly developed cellular immune response. There are immediate undifferentiated immune responses as well as "remembered" cellular immune responses mediated by immunoglobulins. For example, in humans, a classic example of immunoglobulin reaction is the Tuberculin Skin Test.

I'll admit that I know nothing of fish immunity, but with what I know about immunity and in my study of mammalian immunology I feel somewhat confident in extrapolating what is known about mammalian immunology to immunity in general. The question is not whether fish develop immunity to insults from skin parasites but more a question of how long does this immunity last. It's possible that in some fish the first infection instills immunity and they live through it, then the next infection kills them through an anaphylaxtic reaction. Much like insect bites in humans. Therefore, they developed an allergy. It is also possible that some species of fish develop immunoglobins that are secreted in the slime coat that preclude the parasite from getting a foothold.

I'm sure there is much more to it than this, but most deaths from the ich parasite is probably from asphixiation (sp) as the parasite infects the highly vascular gill tissue interfering with gas exchange.

[kathywithbirds]

Interesting! I lost 3 clowns from brooknyella (OK different but you know...) and the damsel had a TOUCH of it but spent all his time harassing the cleaner shrimp to clean him. He lived and was shiny and velvety and clear eyed afterwards.

Shortly after the brooknyella deaths I raised the tank temp from 78 to about 80 and it has stayed there. The damsel did not get reinfected and the tang and 6-line wrasse never looked unhealthy at all.

Now before this I did have a fish with ick, and it cleared up quickly and none of the other fish seemed to get it. I also attribute this to temperature.

I have absolutely no basis for my theories except observations of my tank. The corals and fish all seem slightly healthier at 80 instead of 78.

[vdituri]

Another factor I would take into account is the fish slimecoat.
In a healthy fish it coats the fish in a protective layer.

New fish are handled ALOT and this damages the slimecoat allowing ich to get a foothold. This compounded by the fact the fish is stressed and in an unknown heatlh condition, and just finished a journey of unknown length makes it very understandable that your well establsihed non-stressed fish don't get sick but a new guy falls sick quickly.

[xlayedoutx]

In my last tank my Hippo tang would get Ich from time to time but it never really seemed to bother him and none of my other fish got it. I didn't QT with that tank.

[leebca]

Some Info:
The marine fish immune response straddles between the higher organisms (mammals) and crustaceans. It is similar in some respects to mammalian immunity, but not very good.

For instance, fish can be immunized, but the immunity only lasts a few months to a couple of years. Fish immunization is used to some limited extent in the food fish industry, but it has the above mentioned limitation.

A defense is an innate immunity, not specific to the invading protein. This is primarily contained in the fish's mucous membrane. Systemic immunity does exist, specific to invading proteins and some lipids, but varies in quality between species and even within a given species.

Some opinion:
I am again bothered by people making statements that their fish are not infected with Marine Ich when all they mean and can say is that they don't see it on the fish. Marine Ich parasites are invisible to the human eye. MOST of these parasites reside in the gills.

I've done enough postmortems to know that fish owners who think their fish were free of Marine Ich were absolutely wrong about that.

Second is the mis-concept that, "My fish is infected but is doing alright." What an excuse to allow the fish to be ill or to go through cycles of sickness or for that matter, never ever recovering, just not displaying the disease! Shame on us.

Would that excuse be okay for human illness? Well grandma looks okay even though she has pneumonia, let's not give her meds or take her to the hospital. Give her chicken soup.

Our fish don't talk to us, and humans need to remember they don't know what the fish feels or knows is okay or not okay. It's like a very young child. Often they look fine, but a parent senses when the child is sick, though their general behavior looks 'normal' to an outsider. The difference here is that hobbyists don't know what is normal or abnormal for the fish and have no sense of whether the fish is bothered or happy or sad (all human traits).

How often have I asked a hobbyist why they think their fish is 'happy' and the most common reply is that the fish swims around, in and out of their landscaping. Gee wiz! Guess Blennies that sit in one place for many minutes on end must not be happy. Heavens, Rock fish must really be unhappy -- they lie in wait for food for hours. Then are Lionfishes not happy?

The term to keep in mind here is: personification anthropomorphism. Take some time and look this up. It is the bane of those who research animals (and to some extent, plants).

Cure sick fish. Rid your tanks of Marine Ich. Use a quarantine process. Any other approach and you're just fooling yourself and not providing good care for your fish. I am unconvinced that people who let it slide (allow disease) are operating in the best interests of their fish. A sick fish has a shortened lifespan, under stress (a very invisible condition) and susceptible to other problems. If it is a must to attribute a human characteristic to our marine fishes, then let it be that, "My fish is unhappy because it's ill."

I'll not add to this thread. Very disappointing.

[Woodstock]

Not a very good analogy, I know, but I consider a tank with fish that have ICH similar to a kennel with dogs infested with fleas. Both creatures itch and are constantly being bitten eventhough to our eyes they look okay since they eat and move around okay. The ICH/fleas are there, you just have to look closely (microscope for the fish).

When I chose to remove my fish and treat them for ICH, they all were eating great and only a few showed signs of ICH but I knew the other fish had it also. I could not bare to look at the reef any longer

....So I treated them! They look fabulous and are ICH free!!
The only way to rid your tank of ICH is to remove all fish to a QT, treat them, and leave the main display fallow for at least 8 weeks. I am currently doing just that and am going on the 7th week in QT. It can be done successfully and IMO is the most responsible thing to do.

Check out all the sticky threads in the Fish Disease & Treatment section: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...es-treatments/
Tons of info there to explain how to treat and prevent ICH

[kathywithbirds]

You know we all know better, Lee.

I never got the chance to dip the clowns and the damsel went back to the LFS.

I haven't come across anything that says I should "clean" my DT of brooknyella, should I?

As for the ick, I got this:
No-ICH Marine, Medications | Pet Solutions

Does it work? (I know, the answer is prob. not) It didn't seem to HURT anything, and I was hoping to at least keep the guys "healthy" until we move. Catching the wrasse is my reason for not pulling them out and QTing.

[DrHank]

Lee. I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed by your response. I have found almost all of your past posts to be very helpful. This one seems to be a bit hypercritical and lacks the insight that your posts normally contain.

One of the things I enjoyed in reading your past posts is that I seemed to learn something every time. Please forgive me if I've misconstrued your contribution, but by not providing sound information on how to identify problems in seemingly unaffected fishes, your post really isn't very helpful.

I think that most of us try to do our best to provide a healthy environment for our livestock and are concerned for their welfare. Anyway, enough from me on this subject.

[Paul B]

Lee I think you are misinterpreting the purpose of this thread.
It is on a fish disease forum and is about understanding why some tanks that are infected have massive die offs and some don't. I am not advocating letting your fish live with ich. You are correct that some fish infected with ich are always in stress and it affects them severly. I have had fish like that and I have also autopsied enough fish to know most of them have paracites as I believe all fish in the sea do. A few paracites on a fish in the sea may be a good thing as it may (as was stated) impart some form of temporary immunity. I really can't say if my own personal fish have a shortened lifespan.
I have not lost a fish to any disease in many years. If it were not for accidents they all live long enough to die of what I consider old age for a fish.
They also seem healthy because I know as well as you do that sick fish do not mate or spawn as many of mine have been doing for decades.
It is my opinion, and I consider it an educated opinion because I too have been doing this for over fifty years that fish in a tank as in the sea can live with ich and not be affected enough to cause harm or to shorten their lifespan or stop them from mating.
My original question was "why" can some tanks seem to fight off ich or the appearance of ich, or the devastating affects of ich whatever while some tanks such as mine was in the beginning an ich magnet where everything would die in a few days. What happened to change the course of the disease. If we could figure this out, maybe we would have a better understanding of the paracite or maybe we could learn a way to eradicate it from a reef aquarium. I consider my tank an experiment as it has always been. I experiment to try to make this hobby better. to try to make the animals healthier. If we all had ich free tanks we would not learn anything about the disease.
Again, we know that quarantining is the best way to go and an ich free aquarium will always be best. If I were to set up a new tank tomorrow I would quarantine. But I want to learn all I can.
I know the gobi I bought a few days ago developed full blown ich when I put it in my tank because it had it in the store but in the store it was being treated with copper. In my tank there is no copper. I am not sure if the fish was attacked by the paracites already in my tank or if it was the paracites already on the fish that just matured and formed cysts (more likely)
In a couple of more days I will put that gobi in my tank and see if it stays
ich free as I am fairly sure it will.
Again this is a diccussion of a disease. Not a recommendation to introduce disease into your tank.
Paul

[Paul B]

I would also like to add this
We talk a lot about stress but I am not sure if everyone knows what stress is. In humans it is job problems, teenager problems, money problems etc. but fish have larger concerns. Most of their "concerns" (for lack of a better word) have to do with dying. Tangs or so called "Ich Magnets" are always stressed because they are schooling fish and will always be schooling fish. Two or three fish will not make a fish feel safe. A school of tangs could be hundreds or thousands of fish.
They live in a school because they are genetically programmed to live that way and they know that swimming without a school means certain death.
Thats why a hippo tang hides whenever we put out hands in the tank or turn on the light.
They also "know" that they are encased or enslaved. All schooling fish roam wide areas of the reef looking for the slightest trace of algae to feed on. (yes all reefs grow algae) We feed our fish once or twice a day but for the rest of the day our fish can't find food and they can't swim more than a few feet in either direction to look for it. That causes stress just as it would in a Prisoner of war.
I of course do not mean to imply that fish suffering is worse than being a POW
(I was in a war) but to a fish it is similar.
Another thing that causes stress is water depth. Very few adult fish live in water as shallow as our tanks. They have a built in sense that it is not safe there. In the sea there are birds and crabs that prey on shallow water fish. Fish know what depth water thay are in. Fish like Royal Grammas are deep water fish. I have seen many of them deeper than 120'. They live there because they were made to adjust to that water depth.
Fish do two things, eat and mate. We are providing them food, although not the food they are used to eating and not in a way they are used to eating it, but fish in our tanks are usually lacking a mate or lacking a choice of mates. This is a big problem for fish (as it could be for us)
All of a fishes time is spent either eating or looking for a mate.
We can take a pill and go watch TV but fish are not so flexible. If we succeed in alleviating some of these situations as best we can it will go a long way towards keeping our fish healthy. They may never be as healthy as they were in the sea although we may think so, but we should strive to give them swimming room, identifyable food, and as few antagonistic room mates as posssable.
Have a great day.
Paul

[kathywithbirds]

Hey Paul
Are tank-raised fish somewhat less stressed based on all this?

[Paul B]

Kathy, it's hard to say. I would imagine they are based on my observations of fish in the sea. Moorish Idols for instance swim in large arcs around the reef visiting the same areas over and over again looking for food. I would imagine that if you were to collect that Idol and put it in a tank it would still look for that same route around the reef. If it was tank raised, that route around the reef would not be ingrained in it and it may be more used to hitting glass every few inches. Some sharks swim hundreds and sometimes thousands of miles every year on the same route and American eels swim across the Atlantic ocean to spawn where they were spawned. Salmon swim to the same stream where they were born.
These fish may fare better in a tank if they were raised there and have no ingrained knowledge of these areas.
Of course these are my opinions and not based on anything except my years of diving with these fish.
Paul

[vdituri]

Great insight into fish stresses Paul.
Thank you.