Dori is sick i need help

[Bikinibottom]

She is not moving much hiding My Porcupine Puffer has cloudy eye and probably ich, beauty coral has ich. I have treated the tank with garlic and food. Should I isolate any of them?

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the problems. There are obviously a few things going wrong at the same time.

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is often accompanied by secondary bacterial infections (cloudy eye), and with the fish in a weakened condition, other 'opportunistic' microbes (like fungus) can also move in and infect.

Marine Ich is not cured by garlic or food, although a proper nutritious diet does give the fish some chance to develop a resistance/immunity for a short time. It seems like your fishes are not doing this.

There are only three common sure ways to cure Marine Ich. Hyposalinity, copper or tank transfer. Each requires the fishes (all fishes, even those not presenting) to be moved to a hospital tank and treated. Leaving the marine system fishless for 8 weeks usually guarantees the Marine Ich will die off.

Here's a lot of reading for you to look into Marine Ich facts:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
A Fish Hyposalinity Treatment
Copper Medications - Good, Bad, and Ugly

If you need help setting up and running a quarantine/hospital tank, this is additional reading and guidelines for that:
An Ounce of Prevention. . . article by Steven Pro
and
A Quarantine Procedure

After you finally conquer 'the beast' (MI) then you can keep it out of your marine system through diligent quarantine practices.

Good luck!

[tbittner]

Very true, garlic doesn't cure Ich, but it helps to build a stronger immune system in the fish. In turn, that helps to prevent them from getting Ich but isn't a guarentee that they won't get Ich.

Once they have Ich though, special treatment is necessary. If you don't have corals or inverts, then you could choose to treat in the display tank BUT the Ich virus is still in the water. Removing the fish to the QT ensures that the Ich virus starves and dies in the display tank. If you don't have a QT and you don't have corals or inverts, then by all means, treat the display tank. That's better then doing nothing.

I sincerely hope you can get this issue resolved. Please ask if you have any questions.

[Craig Manoukian]

Welcome to RS and good luck with the information you've received and keep us posted on the progress of your puffer.


If I read your signatue/information correctly, a 30 gallon may be small for a full grown puffer. How big is your porcupine?

[leebca]

tbittner,

You have been mis-informed with regards to how garlic functions in ornamental marine fishes. Fundamentally, garlic juice is an antimicrobial agent, not an immune booster. There are no studies which have confirmed that the use of garlic will improve the immune response in marine fishes. There have been many studies regarding the use of garlic to impact microbial functions, but in general there are better ways to control microbial pathogens.

Fish immune response is something that can't be observed in our fishes. It is something that is measured inside the fish by performing antibody titre. The immune effects of garlic is/was a rumor.

However, the value of garlic juice was tested when I studied the affects of garlic juice on Marine Ich exposed and infected fishes, in the 1970's at OSU. It was shown then that garlic juice does not improve fish immunity, but it can act as a weak anti-microbial agent. No ingestion or bath studies since then have shown otherwise.

Some additional information regarding garlic:
Garlic -- Magic Bullet or Fool's Gold?
and
Garlic. . .Sudies vs. Claims. . . by Steven Pro

[AQTCJAK]

The cloudy eye is from poor water conditions more than likely the amonia is high. Water change of 40% is in order. If the ich doesnt subside Tropical Science Ichtinguisher works great will not hard the fish corals, inverts or the biology of your tank

[Craig Manoukian]

Lee,

OSU - Oregan State, Ohio State, or other?

[leebca]

Craig,

Ohio State.

Born and raised in Cleveland. Two degrees from OSU. Headed West.

[hma]

Originally Posted by Bikinibottom

She is not moving much hiding My Porcupine Puffer has cloudy eye and probably ich, beauty coral has ich. I have treated the tank with garlic and food. Should I isolate any of them?

it is like in that photo ? that is normal with many buffers and no indication of Ich if no other signs to find. A harmless feature is described with many kinds of buffers also in numerous scientific publications.

[prow]

Originally Posted by leebca

tbittner,

You have been mis-informed with regards to how garlic functions in ornamental marine fishes. Fundamentally, garlic juice is an antimicrobial agent, not an immune booster. There are no studies which have confirmed that the use of garlic will improve the immune response in marine fishes. There have been many studies regarding the use of garlic to impact microbial functions, but in general there are better ways to control microbial pathogens.

Fish immune response is something that can't be observed in our fishes. It is something that is measured inside the fish by performing antibody titre. The immune effects of garlic is/was a rumor.

However, the value of garlic juice was tested when I studied the affects of garlic juice on Marine Ich exposed and infected fishes, in the 1970's at OSU. It was shown then that garlic juice does not improve fish immunity, but it can act as a weak anti-microbial agent. No ingestion or bath studies since then have shown otherwise.

Some additional information regarding garlic:
Garlic -- Magic Bullet or Fool's Gold?
and
Garlic. . .Sudies vs. Claims. . . by Steven Pro

well actually it is known how garlic effects the immune system. boosting the immune system is, IMO, a bad analogy. nothing really "boosts" anything. i dont know if there is a study that directly looks into garlic "booting" the immune system but it does aid our fishes own systems to react to invasion. i dont know fish anatomy and physiology all that well. i immagine the actions of garlic in fish will be much like the actions/effects it has in our bodies.

so what garlic does, i think, at least some of what garlic does is
-activates T-cells (T-helper cells to be exact, alert the body when something ivades, T1 for bac, virus, fungal and such and T2 for allergic reactions. which inturn increases production of T-killer cells that eat up everything.

-inhibits certain immunoglobulins that are found in the respiratory and intestinal tracts. these immunoglobulins stimulate mast cells and basophils which normally activate in reasponse to alleric reactions and secretes histamines among other things. for ich or someting in the gill this could be a good thing(not meant to use as a stand alone antihistamine however)

-increase number and type of macrophanges and activity of phagocytes.

-increases neutrophil activity

-activates killers that release interferons(effects viruses)

-effects many cytokines both monokines(produced by monocytes) and lymphokines(produced by lymphocytes)

-increases interleukins(proteins that stimulate white blood cell activity, T-cell growth and nerve cells)


now is this a cure or treatment for anything. not really. does it "boost" the immune system, used in the proper content i would say so. if a fish has ich and the infection is in the gills, the inflammatioin process already in full effect, perhaps scar tissue is already present throught the respriatory tract, will garlic help? maybe but dont count on it. if taken prior to infection or early on yup, IMO, it does indeed (for lack of a better word "boost") the immuse system.

[leebca]

I'm always open to new evidence. Please provide me with the references that support what you think, prow.

[prow]

sure here you go. http://iodeweb1.vliz.be/odin/bitstre...rlicpaper2.pdf

[leebca]

Thanks prow. Any studies done on saltwater fishes?

[prow]

i just did a quick search for that one. i am sure there is something out there for salt. my first post was maily based on what i know about humans. that study i posted showed garlic works similar, in those fish, as it does in us. the effects are also seen in many other animals. i dont know for sure, for sure by physically seening it(but i am 99.99999999% sure) the physiology is the same. all animals share the same/similar physiology.


karma to ya for making me provide proof, i will find something to ref later, you made me want something in my favs for later anyway.

[leebca]

I appreciate your efforts prow. I just finished a course at the NC State College of Veterinary Medicine and the leaders in fish health (Dr. Lambert, Dr. Noga (book on fish diseases), Dr. Stoskopf (book on fish medicine)) still can't support that garlic influences fish immunity.

I hope the Taiwan work has bearing on ornamental marine fishes. I've forwarded the file (although it is an undated report) to the heads of the College of Vet. Med. who have quite a bit of experience with ornamental fish management. I'll post a new thread with anything they respond to me with.

Thanks again.