Bio Balls, is this really why???

[sasquatch]

Nitrate Factories!!! LOL, most of us say it, here's where Im confused. Bio Balls are too efficient at converting nitrites to nitrates and provide no anaerobic bacteria to consume the nitrates,so Where does all the extra nitrate reside if not using bioballs, is LR not capable of increasing its anerobic bacteria content when subjected to elevated nitrate levels, seems like something is not quite right in this. simply put: if bioballs can produce nitrates too fast, where is this material hiding when bioballs are not used. Steve

[Frankie]

Right to my cheato and mangroves!

[sasquatch]

OK Frankie but in what form?

[JFK_Jr]

Steve... there really isn't a reason why bio balls should become a nitrate factory. The problem lies with people who don't keep their balls clean. I personally run a Berlin system which I feel is less maintenance, but I do believe that a properly maintained wet-dry does a good job.

Check out this article:

Why blame bio-balls for nitrate problems when it's not their fault?

How often have you read postings or email from aquarists who complain about their bio-balls going bad? The quickest and most often suggested solution we see to this problem is to, get rid of the bio-balls, now!! This is ridiculous. It is NOT the bio-balls contained in a wet/dry trickle or other type of biological filter that have gone "bad", but just like with an undergravel filter, it is the "lack of proper maintenance" that turns them into a nitrate factory.

It is only when bio-balls as well as other similar types of biological filtration mediums are allowed to become dirty and encrusted or embedded with broken down matter or dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) that they then start to contribute to the accumulation of nitrate in a saltwater aquarium or reef tank system.

Read the rest of this article by Debbie & Stan Hauter here:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/wet.../aa062103a.htm

[sasquatch]

Jay thats my thinking as well, really there can only be as much bacteria as there is food supply, so its either concentrated on the lr or spread out between lr and balls, in your case with the berlin you have an anerobic area to supplement the lr. BTW thanks for the linky. Steve

[BrothaWolf]

Originally Posted by JFK_Jr

Steve... The problem lies with people who don't keep their balls clean.

Ok maybe its me, maybe its just late but I bet there wont be another quote this funny in all of 2007... Sorry mods but I had to....

[saltwaterfarm]

Oh No...

[lgerold]

I had a great laugh over that one too!

OK. So, the bio balls get dirty with nitrate producing stuff. Makes sense. I get a bit confused because if the bioballs don't trap that stuff, where does it go? I think it has to be producing nitrates somewhere else.

[saltwaterfarm]

MAYBE the absense of the bio-balls allows it to remain free flowing until the process occurs somewhere else in another, more beneficial way? Such as nutrient uptake in macro algae growth???

[Woodstock]

In my own lamen's term...
Bioballs have huge amounts of surface area for oxygen loving nitrifying bacteria to thrive. Since most bioballs are located in a high flow area, there are enormous amounts of oxygen available and a strong water flow that supply never ending food (ammonia). In this situation, the first set of bacteria will quickly eat ammonia creating nitrItes as a byproduct. The second type of bacteria quickly consume nitrItes which create nitrAtes as a byproduct. This has completed the nitrifying part. But here is where it ends because the last type of de-nitrifying bacteria needed to consume the nitrAtes into harmless gas are not to be found in this bioball world. The reason is that they require low oxygen (anerobic) areas to live; such as porous live rock and in sand beds. So here you have thriving bacteria producing huge amounts of nitrAtes constantly into the water column.

On the other fin,
Porous rock and fine aragonite sand (deeper larger diameter substrates too) not only provide large surface area for the nitrifying bacteria to do their work but there are also anearobic areas deep in the rock and sand for the de-nitrifying - nitrAte eating bacteria to thrive. In this situation the de-nitrifying bacteria can easily 'grab' food (nitrAtes) from the first set of bacteria. The by-product of these wonderful denitrators is a simple nitrogen gas that floats to the surface.

So, in the first senario, the water is filled with nitrates that the de-nitrifying bacteria can not 'grab' as easily. In the second scene, the de-nitrifying bacteria are literally handed the nitrAtes from the neighboring nitrifying bacteria.

[rDr4g0n]

i just wanna add that my wife (polkadotcat) works at the zoo here in texas, and every single system they have their has a sump that consists of a 10 - 15 gallon bucket, a crap load of bioballs and a return pump.

theyre been running this way for about 7 - 8 years from 30 gallons to 1000 gallons... but then agian they do FO tanks.

[Woodstock]

I bet their nitrAtes are high and they compensate that by doing very large and frequent water changes... OR.. like the Baltimore aquarium, they have HUGE remote DSB that harbor the de-nitrifying bacteria...OR... they have really high nitrAtes and don't worry about them since it is FO system.

It would be interested to know their entire process.

Keep in mind that our goal as reef aquarist is to keep the nitrAtes at 10ppm or less for our systems and although high nitrAtes are tolerated by fish, it is still stressful to them and best to keep them as low as possible.

[sasquatch]

Thanks to Jay for the Johnny Carson moment lol, thumbs up to BrothaWolf for bravery and 10 points to Woody for best explaination. So nitrates to n03 gas is a hand to mouth operation and this takes place within the lr? in trapped air pockets? so a dsb or plenum should have an impact as well? how do the nitrates get to the anerobic area of a dsb, its not exactly a U/G filter where does the flow come from? Some hobby huh 1 question only creates more, now all we need is a really long chemical chain equation to really understand it lol. Steve

[Woodstock]

Where is Boomer when ya need him?

For the de-nitrifying bacteria to thrive, the area must be low/void of oxygen but there is a fine line. Too much flow/oxygen and they will die, too little flow and they will die - as seen in the black sulfur areas of some deep sandbeds lacking surface water flow. Water flow in and around your rock and sand are critical to the life of the surface nitrifying and de-nitrifying bacteria that live deep in the rocks/sand.

Although very, very slow, there is flow in a sandbed and rock (if pourous). How that flow occurs, I am not certain. Maybe the bacteria moving around? Maybe as the deeper parts of the sand bed dissolve in the low PH, an upward current is created? Maybe the temperature difference creates a current?

I only know the basic recipe for growing happy bacteria that complete the nitrifying and denitrifying cycle; 2-3" fine sand, pourous rock and good flow

[boozeman]

here you go woody..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-0...ture/index.php
...and steve, if you really want to get into it and love to read try this...even though it is an older article
http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part2.htm
there is also a part one to that article.. http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part1.htm