plumbing for refugium and sump

[skeletor121]

I have decided to have a separate refugium and sump. Since I have decided this, all I have is more questions.

I am planning on having the overflow piped directly to the sump. I would then like a pump to be connected to the sump and travel back to the tank. I will most likely have an out of sump skimmer. I would like to have the skimmer be connected to the return line for supply and also for discharge. I would like to have the refugium piped to the sump for supply and to the return pipe, connected after the pump, to be returned to the tank. This would allow me to keep most of the good "stuff" from the refugium to make it to the tank.

I am pretty positive that this type of set up can be accomplished, but am not exactly sure how. The reason I believe that this will work is that they make syphons out there that connect to your faucet to drain tanks. I know there are also devices out there to de-water ships using their firemains (an eductor system) using this type of system. I think it is a venturi type of system, but not sure. Basically it uses the suction created by rushing water past an opening to suck the water out of another area.

I am wondering if anyone out there has devised a way to take that syphon technology and place it into their plumbing? If you have please let me know what parts are needed to accomplish this.

I would also like to know where I can figure out flow rates of different size pipe. This way I can limit the speed of turnover in the refugium and in the skimmer. Example: pump pushes out 1000 gph. Skimmer wants maybe 400 gph supply and discharge (not sure flow rates in skimmers, just a guess). Refugium wants about 100 gph discharge. How can I regulate these flow rates without using partially opened valaves?

I will post a diagram of this setup once I get it completed.

Thanks for reading.

[Reef Geek]

I cant think of anyway to make it work either inexpensively or reliably. I would suggest reconsidering having everything feed from/ return to the sump simply for the reduced complexity in the system. Good Luck

[Dennis7]

My Belief is to have a refugium separate and gravity feed back to the tank. That way none of the good stuff goes through the main pump. A refugium should have a slow flow rate. You can use a small powerhead of tee off your main line with a valve to control the flow rate. Then it just overflows back into your tank. You would usually have it on a shelf above the back of the tank this way, feeding back into your tank.

[wooddood]

just taggin along i want the info too.

[skeletor121]

I will not be able to have the refuguium above the tank. Right now the plan is to have it under the stand with the sump. What I am trying to find out is a way to make a Venturi eductor work. As I have said, there are many applications out there that use the Venturi eductor to dewater ships. These systems are very reliable, since many sailors (like myself) depend on them to work in our time of need. I have also seen these type of things to increase flow for pumps and to induce air bubles in protein skimmers. This can be accomplished, I'm just looking for a little help getting there.

The Python Syphon also uses this principle to create a suction that allows you to drain/clean your tank. They have obviously found an inexpensive way to accomplish this. What I am looking for is a way to take this idea and apply this to my plumbing design. Here is a pic that shows the Python Syphon.

[skeletor121]

I will try the pic again here.

[BoomerD]

Here's a link to some DIY eductors.
Thanks to TDevil for posting the link in another post!

[openbrain]

Hello Skeletor,

I think I know what you're trying to do, I think the fuge siphon would work (and by the way a good idea) I think all you'd have to do is put a "y" in the return line that should automatically create a siphon. I don't know about having the feed and the return from the skimmer into the return line. You'd have to have one hell of a pump to drive the skimmer and have enough return to keep up with the drain. You could make the return of the skimmer a separate feed to the tank, this would give you another flow outlet in the tank. Also think about using your drain to your advantage, we have three drains on our tank that go into a sump in the cellar, I've T'd off of two of the drains to feed a fuge and a frag tank. Both of them then drain back into the sump. No pumps no power useage, this works very well for us.

click here to see our sump

[skeletor121]

Don,
Thanks for the info. I had checked out your site before. Very nice setup. I also emailed you about a week ago about some information, which I would like to thank you for the response. Luckily I'm not setting this up until the summer so I have some time to figure this problem out.

[openbrain]

Hey Scott, sorry didn't know that was you.

[skeletor121]

That's cool Don. I just looked at one of the Python fixtures. It doesn't seem too complicated to copy. I will probably go to a plumbing store or Home Depot to see if I can try and copy it. If I have any success I will let you all know. Thanks for all the input.

[Maxx]

Hey Scott, water bed stores also carry the same thing as the python faucet adapter. Takes awhile to drain a water bed and these help out...just another place to look...
Nick

[skeletor121]

Thanks for the info Maxx. I will look into that option too. Unfortunately I will be unable to check out any of these options this week like I posted before. I forgot about how much stuff I gotta get done before Saturday (I'm getting married on Saturday). When I end up checking this stuff out I will let you all know.

[skeletor121]

I think I may have found a way to accomplish this mission. I went to the hard ware store the other day and didn't see anything of use. After being bummed about it for a while I think I have found out how to do it. Look at this thread and the link they have to a part for a skimmer. I think this would work. Instead of sucking in air, attach the air intake to the refugium (not attached to the skimmer, just the return line) and it will suck in the water to return to the tank! What do you guys think about it?

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...3794#post13794

[KodiakBear]

I've been working on the same concept with my sump for a while now. I'm in the Navy, and used the technical manual from a system on the boat I'm assigned to to get the ideal ratios to make it work.
When I first built my sump, I didn't want to have my canister filter go to waste, yet since it couldn't overcome the differential pressure between the rather shallow suction in the sump to the vertical height to the display tank, I used an eductor and a small pump to give it the suction pressure it needed. I used a 3/4 inch PVC 'T' connector and a small poly hose. The hose has an interior diameter to fit the discharge of the small 'booster' pump, and a 3/4" outer diameter to fit inside the PVC. I made a lateral cut at the end of the hose and rolled it into a funnel to act as a Venturi tube. I used silicone to seal the cut. When the silicone was good and dry I placed the hose into the T with it's outlet being as close to exactly in the centerline of the vertical connection of the T as I could get, and again used silicone to hold it in place. I then connected a tube at the bottom to take suction from my sump, and the outlet goes to my canister filter's suction line. With this I have been getting plenty of flow with no ill effects. The important parts of this design is to make the outlet of the venturi 1/2 the diameter of the pipe, and place it at the centerline of the vertical tube.
Hope this helps