DIY sump set-up, HELP!

[grayFish]

Hi! How's everybody doing today? It's me again, the same guy that trying to convert his FW tank into reef tank. It was about a month ago. Now I have a little bit more equipment than a month ago. I have 100 gallon tank with about 85 lbs of live rocks curing.
My equipments are prizm skimmer, titanium heater, retrofit lighting from cool touch (2x 250 MH, 2x 48" VHO actinic), several pumps and wet/dry filter with bio balls which I just found out is not good for reef, so I decided to make my own sump. If anybody has diagram or a pic of DIY sump pls. post it here. I will be drilling my tank next week to set-up an internal overflow. Pls help.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Maxx]

Can you post a pic of the sump??? You may only need to ditch the Bio Balls to use the sump. Failing the ability to mod the sump you currently have you can easily make a sump from a glass aquarium and plexi glass sheets...
Nick

[grayFish]

it's a aquaclear 125 wet/dry filter, it will probably hold about 10 gallons of water. Return pump barely fit in there. I was thinking of getting a new skimmer that will be submerge into the sump.

[Maxx]

not familiar w/ that style...sorry. Why go w/ an in sump skimmer? there are great HOB skimmers out there..(sorry to be rude, but Prizms arent generally considered one of them), and also many fantastic skimmers that can be plumbed to a sump.
Just a thought,
Nick

[grayFish]

what do you mean plumbed to the sump? You mean external skimmer that's connected to the sump? In sump skimmer is not a good idea? Do you have any diagram of the DIY sump? And what size sump I need for 100 gallon tank?

[grayFish]

And BTW thank you! for answering my questions.

[Maxx]

You mean external skimmer that's connected to the sump?

Yes, thats exactly what I'm talking about. They generally are larger, and consequently more effective since they can handle more water and have more contact time, which makes them more effecient. They do take up more space and cost more. Plus you need a dedicated pump to run them.

In sump skimmer is not a good idea?

No they are fine. I dont particularly like them since they displace water in the sump, and in my opinion a sump is there to add to the total water volume in the system. but that is just my preference. There is nothing wrong w/ an in sump skimmer, its just a different way of doing things.

Do you have any diagram of the DIY sump?

Not currently, but I can make one up quickly if you like...

what size sump I need for 100 gallon tank?

Thats another question of personal preference. A friend of mine has a 75 gallon tank that has a 200 gallon sump. I know other people that dont use sumps at all.
A sump really has two purposes. The first is the most important in my opinion, and thats to add water volume to the system. All else being equal, a 175 gallon system is easier to keep stable than a 10 gallon. The reason being that you have more leeway before things get nasty in a larger system. Its all about dilution. A larger tank, will require more pollutants to foul than a smaller tank, (ammonia spike from overfeeding for example). And a sump is an easy way to turn a 75 gallon setup into a 175 gallon system. Getting back to your question about in sump skimmers. In that example, an in sump skimmer is going to displace such a small amount of water that it wont even be noticed, so its a moot point.
On my current 20 gallon set up, I have a 10 gallon sump/refugium which I didnt want to clutter w/ a skimmer. So I went w/ a HOB design.
The other purpose to a sump is to store things that you dont want visible in the aquarium for aesthetic reasons...like skimmers, reactors, heaters pumps etc.
So its all up to you. I would have the biggest sump you can comfortably fit (aesthetics can be a limiting factor, its okay )
After all, its only there to make your life easier
Nick

[grayFish]

Can you make a sump diagram for me right now, so I can order the materials this week, I was thingking of about 36x13x12, will that be big enough? Is it possible for me to build my own skimmer?

[wooddood]

gonna tag along, i have a thread going on the same subject in the diy.

[Craig Manoukian]

36x13x12 is about 25 gallons with baffling, equipment displacemeent, and free board you will probably end up with 23-20 gallons of additional water volume.

I am using a 29 gallon long to build a sump refugium. My refugium will be 12-13 gallons in volume with the sump, equipment and freeboard making up the rest of the 17-16 gallons.

The sump/refugium will provide better gas exchange; CO2 & free nitrgen out, and oxygen in. The refugium will be a place to grow macro algae for nitrate export as well as a place for amphipods and cpepods to to propogate for the benefit of my corals and other filter feeders.

Maxx already covered the additional stability that will result from any increase in system volume.

HTH

[mojoreef]

Greyreef I am going to move this post to the DIY forum. That way the help you are getting can be shared more with other folks doing projects.

mike

[Maxx]

just a basic plan here, this should give you some ideas. BTW the dimensions you gave will be fine...just find the aquarium having the dimensions you want and go to it!
It really is pretty easy....

[grayFish]

thanks for the diagram, really appreciate it! more questions, what is a refugium (I understand it's another type of sump set-up)? what is a detritus? why do I need to keep the refugium from being the most effective? I was thingking of getting a MAG 12 for my return pump (about 950 gph). what is a close loop?

thank you for taking your time answering my questions.
I really appreciate it!

[Maxx]

what is a refugium (I understand it's another type of sump set-up)?

In the strictest sense a refugium is refuge for critters that wouldnt survive in the main tank due to predation from other main tank inhabitants.
Originally refugiums were designed to be viewable and were often considered an addition to a main tank. An example of this would be a 20 gallon sea horse tank plumbed into a 80 gallon reef tank.
However many people also saw how pods, (amphipods, copepods, etc small crustaceans which many fish find good eating, and the larvae are a good source of plankton for many corals. Think food farm for your tank) multiplied faster and consequently fed the tank more often if given a safe haven...so a refugium also came to be a home for pods.
To further the home for pods concept, people started putting macro algae in the refugium in order to compete w/ the annoying micro algae that causes problems in reef tanks. The macro algae uses the same nutrients needed by the undesirable algae, thereby depriving it of food for growth. Along the way refugiums became less attractive, (what w/ being stuffed full of algae and pods...) that they have become relegated to being under the sump w/ the rest of the equipment that keeps the tank pretty and working.
If using a refugium for nutrient export, (macro algae takes up phosphate and nitrates, then gets "pruned back" and thrown out, thereby "exporting" the nutrients that encourage algae growth), then slower flow, allows more contact time w/ the available nutrients. The reccommended circulation rate is roughly 10x the tanks volume per hour...eg 100 gallon tank should have at least 1000 gallons an hour flowing through it. However many people have realized that their corals do better when subjected to more flow, and a chaotic flow pattern. This more closely resembled the swirling currents on a reef in the wild. I know many people who go upwards of 15-20x their tanks volume per hour. Having 1000 gallons per hour flowing thru your sump would be very noisy, (trust me, the wife would complain. It would sound pretty close to a toilet flushing constantly). so you probably would want to slow the flow through your main sump to lower noise levels. I would say between 3-7 x your tanks volume would be fine. Remember the sump gives you a place to keep your mechanical filtration...micron socks or filter floss will collect alot of crap. Detritus is a polite word for fish crap...it also covers uneaten food, and anything thats busy polluting the tank. You want this stuff gone..it will poison your tank. The best way to make your tank successful is to think of it as a toilet, it needs to be flushed constantly, otherwise you've got a big mess. Mechanical filtration is one piece of the toilet flushing. Water changes are another...make sure you can do water changes easily. It wont keep you from doing them then. I dont care what anyone says, water changes are necessary and will need to be done...

why do I need to keep the refugium from being the most effective?

I think I've pretty much answered this one up above, but just in case, you actually want your refugium to be MORE efficient. This is why I like them seperate from the main sump. I've plan on going approximately 7x turnover in tha main sump, and 2-3 x turnover in the refugium of my upcoming tank.

what is a close loop?

Remeber how we said earlier that more flow was better, but you didnt necessarily want all that thru your sump? A closed loop is how you get more flow thats not in your sump. A closed loop is a flow system that exists soley for the circulation. Picture a drain from your tank that goes straight into a pump, (no sump involved) and gets blown back in to the main tank just to circulate water more. Thats it....so if your sump handles 5x turnover, and your closed loop handles 5x turnover, you've got your 10x turnover w/o all the noise. There are many ways to do a closed loop....My plans are on this thread here....equip recommendations
This can give you an idea on how to do it.

I was thingking of getting a MAG 12 for my return pump (about 950 gph).

No problem, just realize that those rating are generally @ 0 head, (meaning no plumbing attached.) Everytime you add right angles to your plumbing, or you increase the height the water column must travel, (head) you increase pressure, which decrease water flow rates.....not insurmountable, just requires more planning.
Hope this all helps,
Nick

[grayFish]

thank you! for taking your time answering my questions, it really helps. Now I think I need to back to work, which I'm here for in the first place.