Elegance Coral Theory questions - Page 13

boozeman · 09-01-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kelly

... I'm not here to debate Darrell's theory.

.

but that is exactly what you are doing...or are you just blindly following without question?

sihaya · 09-01-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozeman

but that is exactly what you are doing...or are you just blindly following without question?

Well, now you're just being antagonistic. He's saying is that he has good reason to have some faith in the possibilites of Darell's theory. And he's saying that this "good reason" has everything to do with experience over internet forum chatter.

And do keep in mind who you're talking to here. If it weren't for Mr. Kelly and the "theories" and "anecdotes" he started with, Goniopora would still be in the same sorry situation as the Elegance Coral.

boozeman · 09-01-2007, 03:46 PM

Ajourney of a thousand miles start with but a single step...many grand things have been accomplished by a single person who has refused to blindly follow. If those reading darells thread on other forums are about to believe that based on his experience thier care is simple and before they make the purchase stubble upon this thread and begin to question then I have made a difference.

John Kelly · 09-01-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sihaya

Now you're just being antagonistic. He's saying is that he has good reason to have some faith in the possibilites of Darell's theory. And he's saying that this "good reason" has everything to do with experience over internet forum chatter.

What she said.

Anselth · 09-01-2007, 03:51 PM

While I don't know much about Elegance corals, I will say this: discovering a pathogen, while helpful, does not define a causative relationship. I read Mr. Borneman's experiment layout, and it seemed a solid starting point. However, one cannot conclude the nature of the decline of captive specimens when the proposed endpoint of that particular experiment is reached. Using the human body as an example: Gangrene is a condition that can be deadly, which is the result of a bacterial infection, usually in the extremities. Once it is able to take hold, it will spread until proper care is rendered. Now, would a human suffer from gangrene after being exposed to these pathogens? No, as most of us know, gangrene is an infection that requires a wound and restricted blood flow to take hold. It is entirely possible (likely) that some other outside causal factor is making captive elegance specimens susceptible to this disease. Unfortunately, further experiments to determine what exactly is the cause of this will likely require decidedly healthy specimens to be exposed to pathogenic organisms, with one group not being otherwise harmed, while others are exposed to high/low flow, high/low light, some will need to have tissue damaged purposefully, etc. The result will likely be the death of several corals that would have survived without the experimentation.

My point in all this rambling (it's after midnight and it's been a long day) is that hypotheses and experiments need to be refined, not mocked, ridiculed, or otherwise put-upon. The scientific method allows for and requires others to put their two cents into the process. However, the tone here has increasingly become one of indignation and attack rather than one of idea exchange. Both sides have merit, the work is now to draw the two points of research together, not push them apart.

boozeman · 09-01-2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sihaya

....

And do keep in mind who you're talking to here. If it weren't for Mr. Kelly and the "theories" and "anecdotes" he started with, Goniopora would still be in the same sorry situation as the Elegance Coral.

I am aware of who Mr. kelly is. unfortunately I am also aware of his ill speaking about this site as well

John Kelly · 09-01-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozeman

unfortunately I am also aware of his ill speaking about this site as well

I'm unaware of that.

sihaya · 09-01-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozeman

Ajourney of a thousand miles start with but a single step...many grand things have been accomplished by a single person who has refused to blindly follow.

Right... and why are you so sure that this doesn't describe Darrell?

Quote:

If those reading darells thread on other forums are about to believe that based on his experience thier care is simple and before they make the purchase stubble upon this thread and begin to question then I have made a difference.

You can't hold Darrell (or anyone who talks about their experiences and theories on a public forum) accountable for the stupidity and carelessness of other people. And like I keep saying, people are still buying Elegance corals and have been buying them since long before Darrell came along. And they're going to keep buying elegance corals no matter what any of us say.

boozeman · 09-01-2007, 04:04 PM

why are you so vigorously defending a point of view from someone whose theory you admit to not even reading?
I am leary of those who seek platforms to debate thier own political agendas.
This thread has deviated far enough from its intended course and will now be closed pending administrative review.

Travis · 09-01-2007, 05:34 PM

This discussion has (as predicted by juat about the entire moderator staff) devolved beyond the point of any rational or constructive conversation. As such, it will remain closed.

PM/email me with any questions or issues.

Travis

09-01-2007, 03:46 PM	#183 (permalink)
boozeman The CodFather ~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: new york Posts: 8,800 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Elegance Coral Theory questions Ajourney of a thousand miles start with but a single step...many grand things have been accomplished by a single person who has refused to blindly follow. If those reading darells thread on other forums are about to believe that based on his experience thier care is simple and before they make the purchase stubble upon this thread and begin to question then I have made a difference. __________________ ...and when I'm old and wise little things mean little to me like autumn winds they'll blow right through me and someday, in the mist of time when they ask you if you knew me remember that you were a friend of mine

09-01-2007, 03:51 PM	#185 (permalink)
Anselth Harlequin Tuskfish Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: South Jersey Posts: 929 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Elegance Coral Theory questions While I don't know much about Elegance corals, I will say this: discovering a pathogen, while helpful, does not define a causative relationship. I read Mr. Borneman's experiment layout, and it seemed a solid starting point. However, one cannot conclude the nature of the decline of captive specimens when the proposed endpoint of that particular experiment is reached. Using the human body as an example: Gangrene is a condition that can be deadly, which is the result of a bacterial infection, usually in the extremities. Once it is able to take hold, it will spread until proper care is rendered. Now, would a human suffer from gangrene after being exposed to these pathogens? No, as most of us know, gangrene is an infection that requires a wound and restricted blood flow to take hold. It is entirely possible (likely) that some other outside causal factor is making captive elegance specimens susceptible to this disease. Unfortunately, further experiments to determine what exactly is the cause of this will likely require decidedly healthy specimens to be exposed to pathogenic organisms, with one group not being otherwise harmed, while others are exposed to high/low flow, high/low light, some will need to have tissue damaged purposefully, etc. The result will likely be the death of several corals that would have survived without the experimentation. My point in all this rambling (it's after midnight and it's been a long day) is that hypotheses and experiments need to be refined, not mocked, ridiculed, or otherwise put-upon. The scientific method allows for and requires others to put their two cents into the process. However, the tone here has increasingly become one of indignation and attack rather than one of idea exchange. Both sides have merit, the work is now to draw the two points of research together, not push them apart. __________________ -Adam Learning on the fly My 70 Gallon Reef My 110 Gallon Build

09-01-2007, 04:04 PM	#189 (permalink)
boozeman The CodFather ~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: new york Posts: 8,800 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Elegance Coral Theory questions why are you so vigorously defending a point of view from someone whose theory you admit to not even reading? I am leary of those who seek platforms to debate thier own political agendas. This thread has deviated far enough from its intended course and will now be closed pending administrative review. __________________ ...and when I'm old and wise little things mean little to me like autumn winds they'll blow right through me and someday, in the mist of time when they ask you if you knew me remember that you were a friend of mine

09-01-2007, 05:34 PM	#190 (permalink)
Travis Smilie Bartender Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 6,657 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Elegance Coral Theory questions This discussion has (as predicted by juat about the entire moderator staff) devolved beyond the point of any rational or constructive conversation. As such, it will remain closed. PM/email me with any questions or issues. Travis __________________ Help build the Encyclopedia of ReefKeeping Find over 1400 Reef Aquarium Articles at The Reef Aquarium Index

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