Elegance Coral Theory questions

[prow]

worms worms worms, everywhere i see worms.

Lynn, only posting for you here. i have had a couple elegance corals before. two i had good results and were healthy corals. one did not make it. the one that did not make it, i believe, was more due to water flow. the ones that live long until i got rid of them did very well in almost stagnant water. try to reduce the flow around the coral so there is only a light swaying of current. also try not to allow the flow to go under and up on the coral. if i said that right, it will help prevent a updraft on that could slowly pull the tissue off the skeleton. also if the flow stirs up sand particles and such those could be irritating it also. slow acclimation to lighting, i know you did this, but might need to reduce lighting again. the swelling of the coral doesnt help the tissue stay on the skeleton either. the swelling togather with a updraft could cause the coral to use most of its energy trying to stay on the skeleton. if the tissue has already started to recede from the skeleton get it up off the sand, if its there, and try to keep any algae/bac from growing there. pics would help to determine if this a diseased or just super stressed. later the flow will not bother it so. now its just trying to normalize itsself. the swelling is not uncommon and in of itself is not bad. but it allows for water flow and floating particles as well as lighting to effect/irritate it more. if there is swelling going on that is. shriveling is what might happen if it couldnt adjust before exhausting its resources. or the lighting is too high or the ___ or the___ or poosibly the____ lol, JMO

dont know if this will help, but its something. best of luck to you lynn. dont get too frustrated, it could be something that was going to happen no matter what you did.

[elegance coral]

I wrote my original theory about 4 months ago. I stated in that theory that I had much more work to do. I explained that I was posting it prematurely. I stated that I had come up with different theories along the way only to prove myself wrong. I also explained that I was posting it because friends and people on RC talked me into it. If I had all the answers in the beginning I never would have started this research. My goal, as I stated in that theory, was to find a way to keep them alive. I never set out to prove or disprove the pathogen theory or any other theory. I started buying Elegance corals with no idea what was killing them or how to care for these sick corals. I began experimenting with different foods and sources for different foods. I experimented with flow and lighting. I have placed my corals in every environment I could think of in the search for something that would keep them alive. I have lost quite a few corals and spent more money than I can afford doing this. This is what research is all about. You start with a question and you test potential answers until you come up with one that works. I didn't solve the problem with my first try, or my second, or my third. I have been at this for more than a year and a half. I have had help from many people along the way and I have done a great deal of reading on the related subjects. It has been a very long road, but I am now able to keep these corals alive. I can even bring back corals that are in serious trouble. If you review all the facts that we know to be true, you can not come up with one that disputes what I am saying today. I have had ideas along the way that did not pan out. I explained these ideas under the title of a theory. I made every effort to explain that I was not sure exactly what these corals were going through at the time. To attempt to use someones ideas that they had in the middle of a research project to discredit the end results is ignorant, petty, and just plain wrong.

It was insinuated earlier in this thread that I was calling Eric Borenman a lire. This could not be further from the truth! I believe everything Mr. Borenman has said he saw. I do not believe that Mr. Borenman has made any effort to mislead the people in this hobby. The facts are facts and I agree with Mr. Borenman on the facts associated with this issue. I disagree with his theories associated with this issue. This is far different than calling him a lire.

[lcstorc]

Ok so I will break down and tell my story in the hope that it will save an animal a neeless death down the line.
I purchased my Elegance around AUG 3 or that is at least the date on the pics. I thought I had it in mid July but I am not certain.
Here are a couple of pics taken on the 3rd regardless.

[lcstorc]

The coral looked gorgeous to me but of course I knew very little about this coral however I had been reading a thread with lots of info so I decided to give it a try. From what I was reading there were 2 real keys. One is that they do not like a lot of light, so I created a shade canopy that went above my eggcrate between my 150w MH and the coral. There was visible shade from the canopy s0 I thought I was headed in the right direction. I did dip the coral in Kent coral dip per directions at the suggestion of the lfs. When I put it in the tanj it was sticky to the touch and looked great to me. The second issuenn I had ben reading about was flow. I have Hydor Koralie Power Heads so they already disperse the flow pretty good but between re-directing power heads and moving rock to form somewhat of an enclosure you could just see the flesh move slightly in the flow. Nothing at all dramatic and no sibstrate moving but enough that it wasn't sitting water either.
Twice in between I feed each head a morsel of my mush using my grabbers. Both times the tentacles gladly grabbed the meat and put it in the mouth. So, I know it ate at least twice in my care and every mouth ate.

[elegance coral]

Now your coral is not showing the large oral disk it shows in the pic, and it is withdrawing especially late in the day. Is this correct?

[lcstorc]

Fast forward to last night. This is what I came home to.

I am not too sure how well you can see in the pics but half of the coral is pretty obviously dead. In less than 24 hrs. Under shade. On the bottom of the tank.

There is a good third of healthy looking coral on the end that I would love to save but quite frankly don't know how. It is already in the shade with low flow. What am I missing?
If you think you can save it send me your info. I hate to see any animal die particularly when my ignorance is the cause.

Any and all opinions are welcome and will be read.
Thanks

[charlesr1958]

Okay, I guess being subtle is not working so will have to make a more direct comment.

First off, What are your qualifications and training that enables you to do biological research? What facilities and equipment are you using in your research?
If you are nothing more than a hobbyists with no formal training in research, which is fairly obvious this is the case, then you can only accomplish two things, Figuring out the basic care of an LPS, of which that info has been out for a very long time, no new news there. Secondly, your care information and linking such information to a possible disease is misleading others into thinking they can get around a disease of which you have no clue.
You should not even use the words "theory" or "research". The best you can claim is "WAG" (wild arse guess), of which anyone can do since to have a theory, you need to have evidence that will lead others down the same path within reason. A guess does not do that and can only lead others down the wrong path.
You disagree with Eric B. okay, thats cool, what evidence do you have that would lead yourself or others into doubting his work? Other than you simply don't want to believe it. The man has access to real research labs and has had other scientists who specialize in microbes take a look at his findings, although at this time, those scientists have not had the time to do such research with the coral tissue simply because to do so, would be on their own time. But, just their comments of the tissue samples looking suspicious is of far greater value to me than anything you have put forth, or could put forth.
The only thing you can claim in doing is that one should provide the basic needs of a coral that has very large polyps. Please stop tossing around suggestive words as if you are actualy doing any real research. And like I've said before, yeah, its nice that you figured out how to care for a coral, but any number of peaple could have saved you a lot of time as that info is VERY common knowledge, that knowledge, or leading up to that knowledge is not a "research project", you are simply trial and error with nothing but "maybe its this" and "no wait, maybe its this", something anyone of us can do ALL day long.
Yes, I am sounding offensive, but you just do not "get it", and I know of no other way to try and make it hit home with you. As far as I am concerned, you are only putting your own corals at risk, as well as others by insinuating that you are doing actual valid research. Please stop.

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

I fogot to mention that I would encourage you to take your "theorys" and "research" and present them to Eric Borneman for his take on the subject. Might he is better able to explain things to you than I can, and who knows, such a discussion with an actual scientist might be a learning experience.

Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman

Chuck

[sasquatch]

Lynn, how much shading do you have? is there indirect/angled mh hitting it? what was the lighting at the lfs

[lcstorc]

Lighting at the lfs was 250w 10k MH but they are raised up pretty high. ?no obstruction of any kind.
My shade is a piece of solid white plastic with a dish towel over it directly between the mh and the elegance. I do still have the actinics that run the lenghth of the tank but that is just 4 96w pc actinics. My shade structure pretty much eliminiated any direct light from that MH blub due to the placement etc. The corals around it have definitely noticed the lower light and I had to move my clams as they we obviously not getting enough. There is nothing but rock anywhere within reach so nothing can be stinging it as far as I can tell. No anemones in the tank at all so that can't be it either.
The only other thing I can think of is my Chevron tang. He has been accused but not charged with the crime of nipping lps. I do find it hard to believe he could nip that badly in that short of time. The coral looked "normal" when I went to work and looked much like the current pics when I came home the same day. That is a lot of picking in a short time particularly for such an overfed fish.

[sasquatch]

cant see it would hurt to fence it off, got any gutter gaurd or something to protect it, the yellow tang at my lfs shredded one in an afternoon

[lcstorc]

I certainly have egg crate anyway. It is surrounded bu rock to mimize the flow so I could easily get a piece for the top. Worth a try at the very least.
Thanks

[Dentoid]

Lynn, I know nothing about this coral, but maybe it's just retracted. Perhaps it will reinflate.

[charlesr1958]

Lynn,

In order to make conditions for the coral as stress free as possible, which is all ANYONE can or has done for corals looking such as yours, place the coral on your sandbed out in the open to where it can get some moderate lighting, also, you want the water flow to be moderate as well, to where its tentacles are being moved somewhat gently but not "standing still". If it will accept food, let it eat what it can and as much as it will take. If your coral is effected by the "problem", there is nothing else you can do for it at this time and only hope that the coral itself can overcome whatever is ailing it. Some times they do make a come back, some times they don't.
The above pretty much sums up all the so called theorys being thrown around and this entire thread could have been kept to a simple "this is what you can do, and just hope for the best", which is really the only thing that the person named "elegance coral" has done in the long run. He got lucky with a few specimens, and just as unlucky with others yet he seems to think he has stumbled upon something worthy of being called research. I apologize to all for my obvious frustration, but hopefully you do see the dangers in making wild guesses and the foolhardiness of claiming research being done in such a manner. For those with elegance corals, provide them their needs as you would any other species and hope for the best, for those that do not have elegant corals, please do not let wild arse guesses convince you that it is worth taking a chance to purchase one. Its not.

Chuck

[Pro_builder]

Charlesr1958,
If someone wants to give insight on a situation that they have had with a coral and a cure that worked for them then that is there prerogative. I don't believe that you are a researcher either, so how would you know if the path that he took helped cure the coral or not. Just because it isn't written in some book that what he did will cure the problem doesn't mean that it won't.
Besides when one of us is having problems with a certain coral or fish we like to be able to look back and say well someone did this and it helped, what does the next person have to loose by trying that way too.
Moral of my post Please have some stricter manors and don't obliviously tear someone apart on this site. Remember we are all friends looking for help and Any info and Ideas that we can get to make our tank mates happier.
Scientists don't know everything either.
Thank you and have a great day,