Elegance Coral Theory questions

[lcstorc]

If we make it dinner, does that help?

[oldsaint]

Only if everyone promisses not to take it to heart. IMO I've been lucky and advice should be left to the more experienced.
When I first got the coral I was dead set on target feeding it a couple of times a week. Food consisted of silversides and krill soaked in selcon. It seem to like the SS better than the krill. Making sure the food was very finely chopped. If not I notice it would get it in it's mouth and then after a few mins release it. After about 6 month I notice it wasn't eating like it was at first so I backed off the feeding until I stopped completely. Now I see it grab stuff occasionally but very rarely. It sits about 2.5 feet under a 400w MH and 440w vho. Tank has 2 400w MH and 880w VHO. Parameters are pretty constant at temp 80, Ph 8.1, alk 3.73, Ca 430, mag 1300.
That's what has worked for me. May not work for others.

[oldsaint]

Sorry I type really slow...lol

[cheeks69]

Hey Oldsaint great to see ya back ! Do you still have it in your fish only ? It looks magnificent !!!

[lcstorc]

Great info!
Thanks for sharing what has worked for you.
Just curious but how long ago did you get the coral?
There have been discussiions about differences in the newly collected corals as opposed to those available previously.
Thanks

[oldsaint]

lcstorc I purchased it late Jan of 2005.
Cheeks it has always been in the 260. At first the 260 was planned as a FO but when the rock started to develop I changed my mind and went reef. Thanks for the compliment.

[kathywithbirds]

Originally Posted by lcstorc

Sorry Kathy for the hijack. Please forgive me.

Not a problem!! I considered chiming in at times but I've been reading all the links and such. I'm still looking into the whole algae thing. I have to read that post about "what is zoollanthe" (sp terrible I know) to find out if that is the algae everyone is talking about. Following along... I'm getting most of this and have to go research things here and there. I'm finding I really enjoy this, where they're collected, how efforts to keep them in a home or research aquarium come about, etc.

Elegance, that feeding video is great!! I'm a reader, but I find visual aids infinitely helpful items.

[boozeman]

oldsaint, good to see you here ...I had seen your elegance pic on RV and also read the conversation with Borneman there...nice site

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by kathywithbirds

Not a problem!! I considered chiming in at times but I've been reading all the links and such. I'm still looking into the whole algae thing. I have to read that post about "what is zoollanthe" (sp terrible I know) to find out if that is the algae everyone is talking about. Following along... I'm getting most of this and have to go research things here and there. I'm finding I really enjoy this, where they're collected, how efforts to keep them in a home or research aquarium come about, etc.

Elegance, that feeding video is great!! I'm a reader, but I find visual aids infinitely helpful items.

You are correct. When we, or at least I, use the word "algae" I am referring to Zooxanthellae. (you were close) I'm just lazy and algae is much shorter to type. If you Google "Zooxanthellae" you can find a great deal of information on the different clads and see how it fits in with what I have been saying. Thanks for the complement on the video. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[oldsaint]

Originally Posted by boozeman

oldsaint, good to see you here ...I had seen your elegance pic on RV and also read the conversation with Borneman there...nice site

Thank you boozeman.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by oldsaint

Hi all, Hi cheeks69. It's been a while since I've posted but this subject is very near and dear to me as I've had about a 3 year experience with this coral. Tagging along for further friendly discussions.
In Feb of 2006 we had chat session with Eric Borneman and he briefly updated he Elegance Coral project. I hope you don't mind the link.
Eric's chat
Most of the talk was about his salt study. The elegance talk is towards the bottom.
Here's mine.

Oldsaint, that is a beautiful Elegance. Nice job.

There are a few things about this conversation with Borenman that I would like to discuss. First, to the best of my knowledge Julian Sprung was the first one to come up with the theory of a protozoan being to blame for this problem. Borenman took this theory and concentrated his research in this area. Before he received his first test coral his plan was to look for organisms to blame. He never looked for any other cause. He never did any research on living corals to determine what may bring on these infections. By his own admission in this conversation, he only had one healthy Elegance and its purpose was so that he could say he had a control subject. I have read everything I can get my hands on about his Elegance coral project and I have not found any mention of him doing the first bit of research on this coral. His assumption from the start was that these infections were the cause of the problem. According to this conversation and other writings by Borenman he found many different organisms in this damaged coral tissue. He did not find one parasite he could link to the corals demise. Finding organisms in damaged coral tissue is not something unique to Elegance corals. In this conversation he talks about how brown jelly and fish parasites are contagious in closed systems. We have known this for a very long time. Any infection can be contagious in a closed system. I do not understand why it is put forward as such a shock that an elegance coral that has an infection can be contagious. Any infection can be contagious in a closed system. He states that this problem is contagious and he knows this for sure. How does he know this? Allow me to explain. He had an Elegance that was his personal pet. He had this coral for many years. He placed several of the donated and infected corals in the same system with his old Elegance. The Elegance began to react negatively shortly after these corals were placed in the tank. Borenman intervened and tried an experimental medication on the system. Within moments of adding the medication the water was cloudy and his coral was dead. While these infections can be contagious this is not what killed Borenmans coral. His treatment is what killed the coral. I don't know any reef keepers that would purposely place a coral they know to have an infection in their reef tank with their other corals, and then be shocked when the infection spread. We have learned that in most cases where a coral comes down with an infection there is a primary cause for the infection. physical damage, shipping stress, acclamation stress, or stress from tank mates are just some of the causes. It is very rare for a healthy coral to just come down with an infection for no reason. Even when we can't determine the cause of the infection, it was still most likely brought on by something. These infections we see in Elegance corals are no different than any other infection. They have a cause. It is brought on by the cellular damage caused by exposure to light that is to intense. If Borenman or other researchers would have concentrated their research on living corals to determine what brings on these infections the problem would have been solved long ago.

Borenman states that this condition is in the wild. The next sentence he states that he has never seen it in the wild. He draws his conclusion from the fact that he saw corals showing symptoms that were collected the day before. As I mentioned in the other thread on this sight, it does not take days for these symptoms to appear. They can appear in minutes. These collection sights are very close to the equator. The sun light there is very bright. The change of light these corals would go through on their journey from over 100 feet down to the surface would be enough to cause damage. This problem is not in the wild. I have never read where this problem has been witnessed in the wild. Even the person from the Philippines that I was arguing with in the other thread said that he had never seen the problem in the wild. They don't have the problem until we change their environment.

I hope that this does not come across as if I'm trying to beat up on Borenman. I don't know Borenman so I can't judge the man. I can even understand him drawing the wrong conclusions from the evidence he has seen. I'm not about to say how many times I thought I had it figured out, in the course of my study, only to prove myself wrong. The problem is that when someone in Borenmans position draws a conclusion, correct or not, people take it as gospel. He is a human like the rest of us and should be expected to make mistakes. All I ask is that people look at the evidence that is there. Even without seeing what I have seen, the only logical explanation for what these corals are going through is damage associated with the drastic change in light they experience after collection.

I have purchased a good Elegance coral to expose to light on video to demonstrate how fast they will swell up and withdraw their tentacles. Then document the corals decline after the fact. I am having second thoughts, though. The idea of killing an Elegance coral does not set well with me. It would be nice if through my upcoming website and continued discussions on forums like this I could get the word out without killing an Elegance in the process.

[cheeks69]

Well Oldsaint since yours is doing so well under 400 watters then we can rule out yours is taken from deeper water.

elegance coral I would appreciate if you could answer some of the questions I have posted, TIA.
AFA the comments about Borneman he did say it was a theory right, nothing conclusive to this point ?

Eric:

one that is being examined by Dr. Kathy Price at the coral pathology lab at Oxford MD for electron microscopy

[Dentoid]

Here is an offspring from a tank raised Elegance coral that I'm getting. It's pretty small, but worth a try.

[kathywithbirds]

Hey, Scott, are there a number of places they raise elegances in captivity? How'd you find it?

Gorgeous, BTW!!

[Dentoid]

I'm getting it from www.colorfulcoral.com. There is a waiting list. Everytime there is baby the guy sells it from his tank. I finally came up on the list. Should be here this Friday.