Elegance Coral Theory questions

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

Could you please provide us with a source for this info ?



Well deep water corals are non-photosynthetic so is this a different sp. of Elegance corals ? Are they photosynthetic ?

You post photos but provide no info. What is the dates on the sequence of the photos ? Where is it placed ? What was the acclimation process ? What lighting are they under ? What condition was it in when you purchased it ?

Here is an article, no wait, it can't be an article because it's on a forum. Here is something Eric Borenman wrote describing where these corals are coming from. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...02/feature2.htm

This is not a different species of Elegance coral. Yes, they are photosynthetic. If they were non-photosynthetic they would not be having the problems I am describing. Non-photosynthetic corals do not have issues acclimating to light.

I provided a time line. Day #1, week #1, week #2, and said I would try to post one month pics today. The day #1 photos show the condition they were in when I purchased them. The lighting consists of one 250W 14K MH that runs a few hours a day, two 40W actinics, one 40W 50/50. and one 20W actinic. They are placed in the same aquarium.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

Well it lasted 18 months so if it sick it certainly showed some stamina...

Elegance corals in the wild are well expanded and healthy. We remove them from this environment and expose them to light they are not accustom to. The relationship between the coral and its algae begins to break down. Oxygen production skyrockets and coral tissue is decimated. Just as an example, lets say that 1/3 of the corals tissue has been destroyed. It most likely took several years for the coral to grow this tissue in the wild. Now, just to get back to its former self the coral must regrow this tissue. If it took this coral several years to grow this tissue in the first place we can not expect them to regrow it over night. Even if they are in the best environment possible it will take time, alot of time, to get back to the fully expanded and healthy coral it was in the wild. The fact that your coral held on for 18 months until you admittedly placed it in a less than perfect environment is not a shock to me. In fact this is exactly what I would expect to see from one of these corals.

[sasquatch]

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[lcstorc]

I am trying to stay on track here, but really I just want mine to be happy and healthy. If I am reading this correctly the fact that the color has not changed and it is filled up like a baloon (slight exageration but man it is pretty expanded) and the tentacles are "sticky" at least make me think it is relatively ok. I do realize that often things look good for a time while there is an underlying problem but all I have to go on is what I see in the tank.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I have quickly fallen in love with this coral and really want to give it the best environment I possibly can.
Thanks

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

On post 24 you posted some photos but you really can't see any a swollen disk or retracted tentacles, it just appears to be withdrawn into the skeleton. Are all these your corals and are they in the same tank or different tanks ?

All these corals are in the same tank, and yes they are all mine. I have 9 at the moment.
There is a pattern to the decline and death of these corals. The first symptom is the swollen oral disk and shrunken tentacles. As this takes place the coral tissue is being ravaged. As the exposure continues more and more tissue is lost. The coral loses the ability to expand and retracts into its skeleton. If the exposure continues infection will take over and the coral will be lost. This is where the protozoan or pathogen theory got its start. If the coral is moved to a more suitable environment before infection sets in it stands a very good chance of recovery. After being placed in a more suitable environment it will slowly begin to expand again. You can see this in the pic's I posted. In time this expansion will increase and it will take on the appearance your coral had. The polyp will expand, but will be virtually flat and the tentacles will be short. In time the polyp will continue to grow and become wavy as the tentacles get longer. Eventually the coral will return to its fully expanded and healthy self.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by lcstorc

I am trying to stay on track here, but really I just want mine to be happy and healthy. If I am reading this correctly the fact that the color has not changed and it is filled up like a baloon (slight exageration but man it is pretty expanded) and the tentacles are "sticky" at least make me think it is relatively ok. I do realize that often things look good for a time while there is an underlying problem but all I have to go on is what I see in the tank.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I have quickly fallen in love with this coral and really want to give it the best environment I possibly can.
Thanks

Even if you decide to believe the pathogen or protozoan theory it can not hurt to take the advice I am trying to give people. The people that support the protozoan theory say that there is no known cure and all you can do is watch your coral die. I have posted pictures that show it does not have to be this way.

Your coral is getting to much light and/or the temp is to high. Your coral is swelling. The pic you posted shows the polyp swollen to the point that it is pulling the mouth open and the tentacles are slightly withdrawing. The corals ability to deal with bright light increases as the temp is reduced. High temps combined with bright lights is a death sentence. If you want your coral to survive you must find a way to reduce the amount of light it is getting or bring the temp down so that you coral does not swell up any more. Every second that the coral remains swollen results in tissue damage. If the tentacles are still sticky this is a very good sign. This means that if you can stop the swelling the coral will still have the ability to feed. If the swelling continues the coral will lose this ability. It will need all the energy it can get to heal the damage that has been caused. Many of these corals lose the ability to sting which makes it impossible for them to feed properly. Elegance corals are ambush predators. They lie and wait for a small shrimp or fish to bump into their tentacles. At that point they inject the prey with venom and the prey goes into convulsions. This causes more tentacles to get into the action and continue to sting the prey until it dies. The coral will then move the prey to one of its mouths and consume it. In order to feed an Elegance we can mimic this process by gently wiggling a small piece of shrimp or fish (not from the grocery store) in its tentacles. The coral will do the rest. Most of the time if an Elegance does not detect any signs of life in the food it will not feed.

No matter where you stand on the issue, I sincerely hope you decide to take my advice. I wish you all the luck with your coral.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

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Advanced Aquarist Feature Article - March 2002

I am no computer person. I have never tried to post a link before. In my thread in the LPS forum on RC titled Elegance Coral Theory on page #8 of that thread is the link. It was posted by Dia2000 on 8-2-07. The link works there. If someone with better computer skills than myself can get the link and post it here I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.
Never mind. It worked that time.

[lcstorc]

I am trying to take your advice since in involves things at least possible for me to do. If ht pathogen theory is correct I am not aware of anything I can do to save it so I am going with trying whatever I can do.
Interresting notes on the feeding though. Mine ate and ate well when I placed small amounts of my homemade mush near/on the tentacles with my grabber thingey. This is how I feed my anemone so I figured it was worth a try and was pleasantly suprised when it ate every morsel given.
The pics I posted were taken almost immediately after intoduction to my system so they are not totally accurate. I'll get some more today and hopefully you will think it is a bit happier. If not I will try to find a place away from the halides and see if that helps. I do have a shade cover between it and the halides. Perhaps I need more shade. I'll post the newer pics and see what you think.
Thanks for the response. I am very devoted to trying to keep this gorgeous animal alive.

[elegance coral]

This is a video of me feeding a couple of my Elegance corals.
Sharkle.com - Free Online Video Sharing Community

[lcstorc]

That looks a lot like what I did except I used the grabber thingy and mush instead of fingers and whatever food you were feeding.
I have to assume that eating is good so I have at least one positive to hold on to. I'll get some pics this afternoon when I take pics of the rock in the new tank.
Thanks again
Sorry Kathy for the hijack. Please forgive me.

[cheeks69]

Here is an article, no wait, it can't be an article because it's on a forum. Here is something Eric Borenman wrote describing where these corals are coming from. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...02/feature2.htm

Humm advancedaquarist online magazine is just a little different than a reefing forum but I guess we don't need to worry about these details...

To repeat, this is a very low-light sand and silt seafloor with no hard substrate and colonized by sparsely populated free-living corals, macroalgae, and cyanobacterial mats. Here, Catalaphyllia were found as small, free-living colonies that are generally the size and shape of the vast majority seen in aquarium stores. However, every coral seen - and every Catalaphyllia collected - from this area had purple tentacle tips. None of the Catalaphyllia at any other site had this characteristic.

I can't tell from the photos but do any of your Catalaphyllias have purple tips ? Also I don't see any info on the depth at which these are collected but at 114 ft. I don't know of anything photosynthetic that would survive at this depth so I would appreciate if you could tell me where you found this info.

If the issue is only the light/temp then at least the light issue is easy to resolve, just shade it from direct light. Could you please explain your acclimation process such as where did you place the corals ? How long did you shade them ? What was your photoperiod ? How far are they from the lights ? What are the dimensions of the tank ? etc.

[cheeks69]

Also I don't see any info on the depth at which these are collected but at 114 ft. I don't know of anything photosynthetic that would survive at this depth so I would appreciate if you could tell me where you found this info.

Nevermid I found it. It helps to read the whole article

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by prow

this is a can of worms, IMO. there are lots of reasons that could be the start of the cause. deeper water collection could be one. just the stress of the collection could weaken them enough. its also thought that after, for whatever reason, they are stressed and weak diatoms and others grow at the base and push the corals tissue off the skeleton allowing opertunistic nasties to enter.

the pathogen thing comes from Eric Borneman, he found a unknown pathogen gram(-) rod, i think. maybe it was a protozoan of some kind. forgot -here is a article about his project. The Elegance Coral Project by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com

this one here is the thread on RC that he updates from time to time. you can follow on the coming and goings of it. the project has been going on a long time. Reef Central Online Community - The Elegance Coral Project

alrighty then, thats all i got to say about that. i will let this thread go where it may. CYA

The last time Borenman posted to that thread on RC was December of 05. I would not hold my breath for any conclusion of Borenmans Elegance coral project. He was asked for an update in his forum back on 5-21-07 and to date the question has been ignored.

[oldsaint]

Hi all, Hi cheeks69. It's been a while since I've posted but this subject is very near and dear to me as I've had about a 3 year experience with this coral. Tagging along for further friendly discussions.
In Feb of 2006 we had chat session with Eric Borneman and he briefly updated he Elegance Coral project. I hope you don't mind the link.
Eric's chat
Most of the talk was about his salt study. The elegance talk is towards the bottom.
Here's mine.

[sasquatch]

Oldsaint that is beautiful! if we begged and threw in lunch would ya tell us what you do?? Steve