Elegance Coral Theory questions

[John Kelly]

Originally Posted by boozeman

the core of Darells theory is that the death of these corals is due to husbandry practices and not a pathogenic vehicle.

The death of the coral is actually due to bugs of some sort. The core of the theory is that the husbandry practices can prevent the initial invasion and even help to reverse the decline once it has started.

[boozeman]

that is not what he has stated. If that were the case then why doesnt he title his work 'the husbandry of elegance coral'?
Mr. Kelly have you followed all of darells postings on elegance coral across all other forums other than the one you are obviously following on RC?
may I suggest you seek enlightenment.

[John Kelly]

Originally Posted by boozeman

that is not what he has stated. If that were the case then why doesnt he title his work 'the husbandry of elegance coral'?
Mr. Kelly have you followed all of darells postings on elegance coral across all other forums other than the one you are obviously following on RC?

Because the work is not finished yet, but in essence, that is what he is working on. Maybe it will eventually be title "The Husbandry of Elegance Coral" or something similar? You would have to ask him.

I've been following it on RC. As far as I know, that is where it started. I don't think a pathogen has ever been ruled out as a "cause" of death, but it is not considered to be the initial reason that the coral begins to decline or becomes vulnerable to infection.

[mps9506]

If I recall correctly the issue with Elegance corals stated here was stated to be lighting issues and thin tissue?
I think most people are in agreement that the problem is not only husbandry (perhaps husbandry on the collection/shipping/wholesale side) but pathogenic.

I personally would like to see an experimental procedure before I donate money or specimens to anyone (Borneman, Darrell or anyone else )

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by John Kelly

Thank you Sara. I doubt it will come down to a problem of funding. It is more a problem of hobbyists acting as a collective to test the proposed solution through their own experience instead of debating whether or not it is correct or incorrect (armchair scientists).

Indeed... especially when it comes to a "hobby" rather than a "discipline" of science. And even when it comes to medicine in humans, there are so many potential factors to consider that it's nearly impossible to discover intellectually what might only be show through actual experimentation.

btw, I can tell that your web site is getting more traffic .

great! And please do let me know if he needs any help with the website stuff.

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by boozeman

the core of Darells theory is that the death of these corals is due to husbandry practices and not a pathogenic vehicle.

It makes perfect sense to me that the problem is more than just a pathogen. In fact, given that Elegance corals in the wild are not going extinct to this disease, I'd only assume it has something to do with husbandry as much as any pathogen.

Just look at Brown Jelly Disease. This is virtually unseen in the wild. Analysis of the jelly reveals a soup of infections pathogens. But these pathogens are opportunistic. It's stress and poor husbandry that allows the disease to occur. It's quite possible to cure and prevent Brown Jelly Disease with "surgery" and good husbandry (without ever directly addressing the infecting pathogens).

[boozeman]

Darells first 'theory' was that light duration was the cause. When that was challenged the 'theory' was changed to light PAR. When that was questioned it was changed to tissue thickness. Now it is attributed to zooanthelae expulsion theories (as if coral bleaching were some newly discovered phenomena).... light ...temperature...husbandry techniques..all do not attribute conclusively that there is something else at work.

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by mps9506

I personally would like to see an experimental procedure before I donate money or specimens to anyone (Borneman, Darrell or anyone else )

Borneman has never presented any respectable experimental procedure (ever in his life to my knowledge). And yet people were more than happy to turn over their money and their corals for his promises to help find a solution.

But regardless... when it comes to problems like this, you have to start somewhere far more crude before you can even get to a formal experiment. Whenever you set out to figure out what is causing a disease you have to do a lot of "trial and error" before you can even come up with a theory. Almost all great research begins with anecdotal evidence before formal evidence is gathered. At this point in our desperation for an answer, I would give my money and support to any intelligent, knowledgable person exploring the possibilities with a well thoughtout "plan of attack."

I haven't read Darrell's theory yet, but I will. At this point, I'd be excited to see even anecdotal evidence of a solution for this problem. It would at least be a bit more than we've had so far...

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by sihaya

It makes perfect sense to me that the problem is more than just a pathogen. In fact, given that Elegance corals in the wild are not going extinct to this disease, I'd only assume it has something to do with husbandry as much as any pathogen.

Just look at Brown Jelly Disease. This is virtually unseen in the wild. Analysis of the jelly reveals a soup of infections pathogens. But these pathogens are opportunistic. It's stress and poor husbandry that allows the disease to occur. It's quite possible to cure and prevent Brown Jelly Disease with "surgery" and good husbandry (without ever directly addressing the infecting pathogens).

I do agree with this 100%. A pathogen found in captive corals is unlikely to be treated directly. Husbandry practices with these corals especially on the collection and wholesale side will really need to be addressed. It seems to me that most of the time before these corals even reach the hobbyist's tanks they have already shown symptoms of shrunken tentacles and inflated oral discs.

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by boozeman

Darells first 'theory' was that light duration was the cause. When that was challenged the 'theory' was changed to light PAR. When that was questioned it was changed to tissue thickness. Now it is attributed to zooanthelae expulsion theories (as if coral bleaching were some newly discovered phenomena).... light ...temperature...husbandry techniques..all do not attribute conclusively that there is something else at work.

Of course not. I'm not arguing that there isn't a pathogen involved. I think there probably is at some point. However, like I said before, the REAL question is HOW and WHY this pathogen takes over the coral. AGAIN, this is not happening in the wild. WHY is it only happening in aquariums?!

The fact that Darell keeps changing his theory in response to challanges is only to his credit (in my opinion). I have more respect for someone willing to change a theory in response to more information than people who cling to a theory (despite all evidence to the contrary) for the sake of their pride.

[boozeman]

As aquarists we have a great responsability. To always question in thirst for knowledge. Already I have noticed the vacillation in your stance between light and pathogenesis. As more advanced hobyists we owe it to all those who are entering the hobby...to not blindly follow anyone who hails himself as the next savior like some road side preacher. I fear for those who with limmited knowledge see this so called theory and attempt to keep this coral in the belief that all that is needed to guarantee its survivability is the proper photo duration. Should we stand by and accept as verbatim while countless examples of elegance wither and die...while the species is removed from nature untill it is doomed forever?
I, for one, am not so ignorant.

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by mps9506

I do agree with this 100%. A pathogen found in captive corals is unlikely to be treated directly. Husbandry practices with these corals especially on the collection and wholesale side will really need to be addressed. It seems to me that most of the time before these corals even reach the hobbyist's tanks they have already shown symptoms of shrunken tentacles and inflated oral discs.

Exactly. What scares me the most is the possibility that this disease might HAVE to be addressed at the wholesale end or even sooner (the possibility that by the time the corals get to us it's already too late). We all know just how impossible it is to change things up the line.

[John Kelly]

boozeman, get some experience and then we can talk. Until then, you can debate all you want, but you'll get nowhere. I'm not here to debate Darrell's theory.

I have extended experience with some of the observations he's made; except, it is with a different problematic coral. The claims he makes cannot be made without actually making the observations first, which takes experimentation. I know for a FACT that he is making progress in his observations because a person cannot speak in that language unless they have experienced it for themselves, which brings us to the real problem.......people are quick to dismiss the theory without any experience.

The theory can't be properly "challenged" by people just chattering on a forum.

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by boozeman

As more advanced hobyists we owe it to all those who are entering the hobby...to not blindly follow anyone who hails himself as the next savior like some road side preacher.

I totally agree with you! But at the same time, I don't think we should sit idly by waiting for some grad student to find the time to do something with all our money and corals. We've been waiting for him to do something for too long. It's time we tried something else and gave someone else's theory some consideration.

I fear for those who with limmited knowledge see this so called theory and attempt to keep this coral in the belief that all that is needed to guarantee its survivability is the proper photo duration.

Well, I hope that Darell is not advising people to purchase these corals unless they know what they're getting into. However, let's not both be so niave as to think that people aren't still buying these corals. Even before Darell came along, people were still buying elegance corals. In fact, not even 6 months ago, one of my LFSs had at least 5 of them for sale. It seems they were all sold within a few weeks. We can all try to tell people not to buy them (and my care sheet for them advises people not to), but that doesn't mean anyone is going to hear or heed us.

Should we stand by and accept as verbatim while countless examples of elegance wither and die...while the species is removed from nature untill it is doomed forever?

Mabe I'm just more pessimistic, but I truly believe this is going to happen anyway. People are still buying them and are going to keep buying them no matter how many of we "advanced aquarist" warn against it.

Seriously Boozeman... people are STILL buying carnation corals!!!

I, for one, am not so ignorant.

I understand, but I also think you're niave if you think that we can keep people from purchasing these corals when we can't even get people to stop buying carnation corals.

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by John Kelly

which brings us to the real problem.......people are quick to dismiss the theory without any experience.

The theory can't be properly "challenged" by people just chattering on a forum.

Amen