Elegance Coral theory

[cheeks69]

Originally Posted by elegance coral

The last coral I lost was fried under a 175W 10K MH. It was only there for a matter of seconds. After this it went down hill and was dead in 2 days. This was a beautiful coral before I did this to it.

Really ?
I have had issues with photo acclimation/bleaching before and it never happened in such a short period of time. Corals can retract their tissue almost completely if sudden events happen it's usually prolonged exposure that causes harm. The next time my friendly LFS gets a new Elegance will just have to test this.

[charlesr1958]

"Does this mean that these organisums are responsable for the fishes death?" Most likely yes, and such an observation/exam would make a lot more sense for a cause than someone taking wild guesses or figuring out that a coral should be light acclimated.

"The point that I was trying to make was that these corals can be damaged far easier than other LPS's. "
Damaged in what way? and why easier? How did you come to that conclussion? You state that you can not prove this and that it is not fact, yet you make conclussions. I or anyone can throw wild guesses around all day. How is that helpfull?

When I read through your postings, it gives the impression that you are claiming to have a cure for what has been ailing these corals by taking good care of them. While I am sure such care is helpfull to the corals, you seem to be mixing possible causes up and are making assumptions based on just pure speculation. "I wanted to find a way to keep them alive. I can do this now." Thats great, but again, proves nothing as to the causes of their initial problem, Is it the disease or is it just poor care? And I am speaking of your specimens, which I would suspect is not the disease since yours bleached, which is not indicative of the disease and is one of poor handling/care instead.

"You are not trying to help anyone with this problem." I can not be of help if I do not know the cause or any possible cure. I am simply pointing out the fact that you are not helping either, other than repeating known care.

"All you are doing is trying to be distuptive and cause more problems." Why? because I am not hailing wild guesses or patting you on the back for figuring out that an LPS or any coral for that matter stands a better chance of doing well if cared for properly?

Why are you so defensive or offended if I or anyone questions something or points out what should be obvious? As I've said before, the only claim you can make is that you have figured out how to care for an LPS, thats nice, but thats about all it is. You have no way to know what the cause is. period. If someone does have a coral that is "infected", such basic care is about all you can do, and pointing that out is....nice.

I have collected, in the same manner that the collectors do, specimens (elegance) from shallow water (5-10feet) and from deep water (30-40feet) and have never had any issue with either of the two...ever. Even when allowed to sit in an open bucket in the sun. It is much more likely that the corals are being infected during initial handling/shipping.

Why am I in this thread? Simply because I found your initial claims to be possibly misleading and amount to nothing more than ancedotal (and most likely incorrect) observations. Once again, you figured out that the corals should be placed lower in a tank to avoid light acclimation issues or issues of too much light, thats great and I do not have a problem with that as you seem to think. But you also lead others into thinking that you have found the answer to what has been ailing these corals which might encourage them to purchase the corals, which is what I have a problem with. The title of Elegance coral project" should have read "how to care for an LPS", then I would not have even wasted my time to open the thread.

[mps9506]

My corals, Eric Borenmen's corals, Julian Sprung's corals, and many other corals around this country all suffer from the same symptoms. Is it not safe to say that they are all suffering from the same ailments?

I don't think it is safe to say they have the same problems. I'm not quite convinced they are always showing the same symptoms. But not having seen all the corals in person over a length of time who am i too say?
But I really don't think it is safe to say they have the same problem.
That would be much like saying all acros that suffer RTN get RTN because of the same reason. This is in the end a stress related condition, and the underlying cause might for some elegance corals be light, other improper handaling other might be a combination, and other it may be a disease.
Another example would be, just because someone has a fever does not mean they have the flu.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

Really ?
I have had issues with photo acclimation/bleaching before and it never happened in such a short period of time. Corals can retract their tissue almost completely if sudden events happen it's usually prolonged exposure that causes harm. The next time my friendly LFS gets a new Elegance will just have to test this.

I really hope that you do. These corals are not behaving in the same fashion as other LPS corals. It would be nice for someone else on this sight to see some of the things I have seen. It is one thing for someone to just disagree with what I am saying, having never tested any of this for themselves. It is something much different for someone to be able to say, this is what I did with my coral and this is how it reacted.
I believe it was Boozman AKA Linkman. That posted a link here to a thread I started like this one on a different sight. I have been able to go into more detail as to what I have seen in that thread. Here I have been busy putting out the same fires that just keep flaming back up. I have not had time to get into what can be expected from these corals, yet. I still have hope though. If you want to know if what you see with your coral differs from what I have seen It would be helpful if you could find time to read through that thread.
Thanks, Darrell

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by charlesr1958

"Does this mean that these organisums are responsable for the fishes death?" Most likely yes, and such an observation/exam would make a lot more sense for a cause than someone taking wild guesses or figuring out that a coral should be light acclimated.

There are many organisums that take part in the decomposition of dead and dieing animal tissue. On land its insects and their larvae, bacteria, fungus, and many other organisums. In our oceans there are just as many if not more. To find unknown organisums in these tissues and then say that these organisum are responsable for the death of the animal is a very large leap.
If a coral shows symptoms and one does not know what these symptoms mean, how can they fix the problem the coral is having? To properly acclimate a coral to lighting you would need to know what the different signs are that a coral will display, what those signs mean, and what we can do in response to those signs. A great number of these corals are dieing simply because people don't know what the different signs mean. These corals are not reacting in the same way most other LPS's do. This does not amount to simple LPS care as we know it.

"The point that I was trying to make was that these corals can be damaged far easier than other LPS's. "
Damaged in what way?

Again, this has been explained. The first coral that I lost in this study was due to a shrimp walking across the corals polup and puncturing the corals tissue. I have had clown fish peck holes in them, and Royal Gramas with ich damage them when they were used as a scratching post.
and why easier?

Again, been discussed. I don't know why. I don't need to know why. If my goal is to keep them alive all I need to know is that this can take place and avoid those things that can cause them harm. I took a guess at this before. You didn't like my guess, so feel free to come up with your own.How did you come to that conclussion?
Answered above.
You state that you can not prove this and that it is not fact, yet you make conclussions. I or anyone can throw wild guesses around all day. How is that helpfull?

Don't confuse issues. I can not prove the skin thickness part of this. A newly interduced Elegance will show the symptoms above. Any one that wishes to can test this for themselves. After they have acclamated to tank life they become much tougher. I don't know why this is and don't need to know why at this point.
When I read through your postings, it gives the impression that you are claiming to have a cure for what has been ailing these corals by taking good care of them. While I am sure such care is helpfull to the corals, you seem to be mixing possible causes up and are making assumptions based on just pure speculation. "I wanted to find a way to keep them alive. I can do this now." Thats great, but again, proves nothing as to the causes of their initial problem, Is it the disease or is it just poor care? And I am speaking of your specimens, which I would suspect is not the disease since yours bleached, which is not indicative of the disease and is one of poor handling/care instead.

I only have 3 that have bleached, and one of those were bleached when I got it. One of the others bleached because I had it in very, very little light. The other was partially bleached when I got it and continued to bleach, I believe, because the light was slightly to intence for it.
"You are not trying to help anyone with this problem." I can not be of help if I do not know the cause or any possible cure. I am simply pointing out the fact that you are not helping either, other than repeating known care.

Again, not known care. If it were they would not be dieing in the numbers that they are. These corals need to be cared for in a different manner than other LPS corals. If I am keeping my corals alive with simple LPS care then everyone else should be keeping these corals alive also. They're not. This is because what I am doing is different then what they are doing.

"EDITED." Why? because I am not hailing wild guesses or patting you on the back for figuring out that an LPS or any coral for that matter stands a better chance of doing well if cared for properly?
No one has known how to care for these corals. This is why they have been dieing. Am I not allowed to take a guess at something if I persent it as such? If you don't agree with a guess I make that is fine, but to use it in an attempt to discredit all the other work I have done is not.

Why are you so defensive or offended if I or anyone questions something or points out what should be obvious? As I've said before, the only claim you can make is that you have figured out how to care for an LPS, thats nice, but thats about all it is. You have no way to know what the cause is. period. If someone does have a coral that is "infected", such basic care is about all you can do, and pointing that out is....nice.

I don't need to prove the cause if i can pull them through the symptoms. Someone else with more experience in that area can prove the cause. Based on my observations I should be able to present a theory as to the cause. However, this is irrelevant as far as what I am trying to do. If I can aid people in keeping these corals alive then I have accomplished my goal. To tell people to use simple LPS care will not accomplish this goal.

I have collected, in the same manner that the collectors do, specimens (elegance) from shallow water (5-10feet) and from deep water (30-40feet) and have never had any issue with either of the two...ever. Even when allowed to sit in an open bucket in the sun. It is much more likely that the corals are being infected during initial handling/shipping.

I talked with a lady that was on a boat during a collection expadition where they were bring up Elegance corals from deeper water. By the time these corals made it to the boat they were showing the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles. She concluded that this was due to the difference in pressure the coral had just gone through, witch is a logical assumption. However, I know this to be a symptom of light exposure. This seemed to be a very nice lady with no agenda and nothing to prove. .

Why am I in this thread? Simply because I found your initial claims to be possibly misleading and amount to nothing more than ancedotal (and most likely incorrect) observations. Once again, you figured out that the corals should be placed lower in a tank to avoid light acclimation issues or issues of too much light, thats great and I do not have a problem with that as you seem to think. But you also lead others into thinking that you have found the answer to what has been ailing these corals which might encourage them to purchase the corals, which is what I have a problem with. The title of Elegance coral project" should have read "how to care for an LPS", then I would not have even wasted my time to open the thread.

The title of what I wrote was "Elegance coral theory" not "Elegance coral project". The project was Eric Borenmens. In the begining of that paper I explained why I was doing this. It was to find out how to care for them, which no one knew. The goal was never to prove anything to anyone. I agree with the people that talked me into writing that paper in the first place. They said that if I knew anything that can help people keep these corals alive I should tell them. This is what I am trying to do.

[charlesr1958]

Okay, I stand somewhat corrected (the title), but will give you due credit for stating that your observations are a theory, but I guess I took your posts as making claims as fact, and if not facts, then at least confusing statements, I say confusing, because I took your postings as meaning that you have found a way to bring corals back from a disease, which is actualy a theory since there are organisms within the effected corals tissue that are not known to be a benign occurance and is the only real plausable reason we have for now.
Again, and hopefully for the last time, I think its great that you have figured out how to care for an LPS, but there ARE two very distinct problems that elegance corals can face, A yet to be discovered pathogen and just plain old poor husbandry skills/knowledge. The upside to "your" good husbandy of these corals is that if by chance, one of the corals actualy has the suspected pathogen, "your" good husbandry can only be a good thing for a coral that is not feeling too well. Will it cure the coral? No, but it sure is not going to hurt it.
I would also take issue with your lady friends conclussion about the corals appearing the way they do when collected because of pressure differences, since corals are fluid filled, and fluid not be able to compress or be subjected to pressure at depth, that could not be the issue or cause, if the corals had an air chamber within them, such as most fish do (swim bladders), then sudden pressure differences would be an issue. I am positive the reaction that was noted during collection is just normal responses to being picked up, handled and dropped into differening conditions. In other words, stressed out. Which itself could play a role if a (or any animal) stressed out coral is subjected to a holding/shipping tank that is "infected". BUT...that is just guessing on my part of course, yet is what makes sense to me given what is known, and what little is known.

This is an example of what I mean by misleading -

"if I knew anything that can help people keep these corals alive I should tell them"

I could read this in two ways... You have figured out how to beat (cure?) the problem as discussed within the elegance coral project, which means I can now run out to the store and buy one... or... You have figured out how to provide the right conditions for a specimen to heal that has been abused.

Which leads to a whole other problem, how does one REALLY tell the difference between the two very distinct problems? You can't really.

That is the crux of the problem I have, I have a real issue with anyone promoting the keeping of these corals when they have such obvious issues. The reason I kind of freak out about it is simply because I know the normal population levels of this species and have to swim quite a distance to be able to find a single specimen, with the amounts being collected and being killed, it astounds me to think of how much reef in this world is now elegant coral free. Another factor is that those specimens that are collected are "juveniles", (fairly new recruits). A much older specimen can average the size of a end table or small coffee table. Not something that would be collected for the trade.

Anyways, I think I now "got it" and hopefully you do so as well...lol

Here is a bit of eye candy to smooth the feathers and hope it might be a good reference for you on what a healthy, young elegance coral should look like, while on a real reef that is....lol I'll have to remember to get a photo of a very large specimen that I know of that is in about 35 feet of water. The one shown here was in about six feet of water, if that.



Chuck

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Darrell, have you summarized any treatment program, identified a common starting point with a first response action, perhaps that would be a starting point for preservation?Steve

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I wasn't trying to avoid your question, I just got a little side tracked.
Yes, I can summarize a treatment program. I would not be able to do this in a line or two, so it may take me a while to put it into words. As soon as I do I will post it here.
This was a good question and thanks for asking. Darrell.

[Dentoid]

Originally Posted by charlesr1958

Chuck

Stunning!

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by elegance coral

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I wasn't trying to avoid your question, I just got a little side tracked.
Yes, I can summarize a treatment program. I would not be able to do this in a line or two, so it may take me a while to put it into words. As soon as I do I will post it here.
This was a good question and thanks for asking. Darrell.

Darrell? where you at??

[elegance coral]

Okay, so I did a google search for "Elegance corals" today and what did I find? This thread. Of all the threads I have started on this subject this is the only one that went poorly, and the one that shows up like this. (I wonder if Link Man had anything to do with it? )

As I stated in my original theory, I posted it prematurely. I did this before my research was complete because of pressure from hobbyists that wanted to know what my thoughts were up to that point. I posted it here in this forum thinking it would be a starting point for an intelligent conversation on the subject that we could all gain something from. It didn't work out that way, so I moved on to more productive ways of devoting my time. Now that many more people have access to this thread I thought it was important to clarify a few things on this subject, so here it is.
It has been said here in this thread and many other places that the symptoms we see in these corals do not show up in the wild. This has been used as evidence that a pathogen must be at work. This evidence equally supports my position on the subject. If the problem is brought on by a change in light and /or temperature as I believe we would not see these symptoms in the wild.
In other reports it has been said that this symptom of an over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles is contagious. What brings people to this conclusion? It's simple. If you have a tank with several corals showing these symptoms and you place a seemingly healthy coral in the same tank it will quickly begin to show the same symptoms. Based on this it again has been assumed that a pathogen must be at work and quickly attacked the newly introduced coral. Based on my research this isn't whats taking place. The original corals in the tank are showing signs of stress brought on most likely by the lights being to intense. The newly introduced coral is simply reacting to the same stress as the other corals and has nothing to do with the fact that other corals are in the tank. If the lights were reduced and the temp was below 80 all of the swelling in the corals would subside. With that said, there is a point where this problem can become contagious, but I will get into that shortly.
I have done a great deal more research and studying on this subject since I wrote my original theory. I have a much better understanding of what these corals are going through today than I did then. This was my fear, and my reason for not wanting to post anything when I did. I did not want to post something to later find out that I didn't fully understand what was taking place. This is exactly what happened. I was on the right track, but I just didn't fully understand what I was seeing. Now I have a much better understanding of this problem.
These corals are suffering the same effects of a coral that has bleached. The only difference is that they are not expelling their algae. I don't know why they retain their algae in these situations. This is an area for a much more qualified person to study. When these corals are exposed to light greater than that witch they came from, or excess temps, they begin to swell up and withdraw their tentacles. The same damage to coral tissues that we see in individuals that have bleached is taking place in these corals as they swell up and withdraw their tentacles. The longer, and more intense, the exposure, the more severe the damage to the coral tissue will be. This is where I got a little confused in my original theory. I knew the coral tissue was much more sensitive but didn't know why. I took a stab at this by saying that the tissue could be thinner in the corals that come form deeper water to allow more light to penetrate the coral and reach the algae. Thankfully, I stated that I could not prove this, because it was wrong. The tissue is more sensitive due to the damage caused by the breakdown of the symbiotic relationship between the coral and the algae. This is brought on by bright lights or elevated temps. There has been a great deal more research into corals bleaching after the El nino events that caused wide spread bleaching on coral reefs. Anyone interested in the details of this process can Google "coral bleaching" and you will find a great deal of info on the subject.

After a coral has gone through this overly inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles its tissues have been damaged. Just as in a coral that has bleached. This tissue is much more susceptible to infections and damage from physical abuse than tissue of a healthy coral. These corals only become contagious after an infection sets in due to this tissue damage. As we have known from the infancy of this hobby, any infection in a closed system can become contagious. This is the only time that the problems with this coral becomes contagious.

This could be considered anecdotal, if it could not be reproduced over and over again in any tank with any of the deep water corals. Because of the fact that any of these deeper water corals will react in the same way under the same conditions time after time the evidence is anything but anecdotal. One only needs to test this for themselves.

I am currently working on a video to show that the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles are a symptom of light exposure. As soon as I complete this video I will post it here and on the other sights like this one. My hope is that this video will change the way people look at this problem and we can find a better way of dealing with it.

[sasquatch]

Welcome back Darrell,so in your "opinion" what is the best coarse of acclimation,introduction and daily care, for anyone who may be bold enough to try an elegance.Steve

[mps9506]

The tissue is more sensitive due to the damage caused by the breakdown of the symbiotic relationship between the coral and the algae. This is brought on by bright lights or elevated temps. There has been a great deal more research into corals bleaching after the El nino events that caused wide spread bleaching on coral reefs.

I am pretty familiar with some of the work done on acros and brains in the Caribbean because I was lucky enough to work with a professor at my college after she had done much research on this. Most of her work concentrated on elevated temps, as well as increased sedimentation in the Caribbean.
That being said, short term increased temps definitely will cause a bleaching event, I am not sure about short term light exposure though? Again I have no idea what type of light increase these guys are being exposed to since I still haven't seen much info on where these are being collected from. It just seems weird to me that other corals collected in the same vicinity wouldn't suffer from the same problem? I assume fungia's, lobo's etc are collected from the same area, if you could clarify this let me know because I am not familiar with the collection areas.
I definitely agree that over exposure to light light during warehousing/retail and hobbyist's tanks would cause bleaching and susceptibility to pathogens and infections. If this is happening before it reaches a hobbyist's tanks then why are we not seeing the same for other corals collected from the same areas?

Again don't take this as an attack on your research/observations, I just want to bring up questions to make everyone think about this as much as possible.

[elegance coral]

From what I have read these corals are being collected from the sand/silt beds at the base of coral reefs at depths reaching 60ft. I have not studied other coals enough to know what species may share this environment. I am not qualified to speculate as to the reactions of other corals that may share this environment, but you asked so I will. I believe that the problems with Elegance corals stem from the clad of algae living in its tissues. These algae don't seem to be very well adapted to increases in light and temp. I would assume that it is possible for a different species of coral to survive in this environment while hosting a different clad of algae. This may explain why we don't see reports of this in other corals. However this is pure speculation on my part.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Welcome back Darrell,so in your "opinion" what is the best coarse of acclimation,introduction and daily care, for anyone who may be bold enough to try an elegance.Steve

Thanks for the welcome!!

My opinion would be to start out with light that is less intense than what you would expect the coral to need. Keeping in mind that most of the corals coming into the hobby are deep water corals. Slowly increase the lighting and watch for swelling of the polyp. If the polyp begins to swell up shortly after the lights come on they are to strong and will have to be replaced or moved further away. If the coral begins to swell up 6 or 7 hours after the brightest lights come on the photo period can be reduced. As even the supporters of the pathogen theory admit, antibiotics and other medications will do nothing to help this situation. (it is because there is no pathogen to kill at this stage) Once you have the lights adjusted where the coral does not swell up, there is little to do other than regular maintenance and feedings. In most cases the expansion of the coral will decrease over the first week or two depending on the amount of damage it received before you got it. In my experience most of them will survive this without coming down with an infection, provided they are not exposed to very bright lights or high temps while in your care. If an infection does set in the normal fragging and iodine dips are all you can do. If there is still any viable tissue left on the coral it can survive.

[cheeks69]

Based on my research this isn't whats taking place. The original corals in the tank are showing signs of stress brought on most likely by the lights being to intense. The newly introduced coral is simply reacting to the same stress as the other corals and has nothing to do with the fact that other corals are in the tank

How bout Elegances that have been kept for years and are very healthy and then placing a "sick" Elegance and all of them showing the same symptoms and eventually they all die ?

These corals are suffering the same effects of a coral that has bleached. The only difference is that they are not expelling their algae. I don't know why they retain their algae in these situations. This is an area for a much more qualified person to study. When these corals are exposed to light greater than that witch they came from, or excess temps, they begin to swell up and withdraw their tentacles.

I am not aware of any other coral that shows these same symptoms when in serious stress, in every case based IME from Softies, LPS to deep water Acros and even Anemones they all bleach. Have you tested this on your Elegance corals ? Could you give us some detailed info on any experiments you have made that clearly show that an increase in temp or exposure to an increase in light levels causes these reaction on the Elegance corals ?

This could be considered anecdotal, if it could not be reproduced over and over again in any tank with any of the deep water corals. Because of the fact that any of these deeper water corals will react in the same way under the same conditions time after time the evidence is anything but anecdotal. One only needs to test this for themselves.

It has been reproduced by whom ? How do you know that all these Elegance corals are coming from deeper water ? Is there any scientific studies that you know of that you would like to share ?