Elegance Coral theory

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by charlesr1958

I had forgotten to add this update :

Elegance coral update

Chuck

This was posted over a year ago and to the best of my knowledge nothing has changed.

[prow]

Originally Posted by elegance coral

There is absolutly no proof that the protazoans found living in dead or dieing corals is the reason for thier demise. All that anyone can say is that they found them. No one knows what they are or what thier function is. If they were parasites eating these corals alive I would not have a tank full of corals that are improving every day. No matter what these protazoans are or how they live, I can safely say that they are not the cause of the problem.

aaahhh, dont think in such absolutes. there is a lot info that points to bacteria. the general consensious at Sea World is the "dirty" water (where most were collected in the past) might be the main problem. ones collected from deaper "cleanner" water react different than those from shallow waters. anyway, i was informed that their work has pointed to dialtons that feed on the mucus produced by the stressed coral which then grow and push the edges of the coral off its skeleton and allow opertunistic bac/pathongens to invade. the pathogen theroy does have merit and should not be dissmissed. your work at best is anecdotal, nothing more. you provide no proof just observations, which can be very missleading. how did you determine the skin was thicker? are you talking about the number of cells in a layer? the cell membranes, mucus membranes? what is thicker?

The symtom these corals show with the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles is the result of light exposure.

based on dropping corals in various light conditions? how do you know its not something else like protecting itself from invading pathogens including overactivity of its normal flora? could it be inflammation, if so what triggered the inflammatioin proccess? you can not determine this by only watching the coral.

I didn't simply come up with the theory of light exposure and deside to tell people about it. Thanks, Darrell

how did you come up with it? so far you only give anecdotal evidence based on observations. which is good to know and helpful, but not fact and open to interpretation.

There are people that will disagree with me because they read something somewhere or someone told them that there was a different problem.

did not just read. true i did not do my own expirements but the people i have talked to and visited with did. i was able to follow some of those projects and visit the facilities anytime to get updates, still can and do. FYI i trust Shelly at sea world and i do not need to look in the microscope myself. that does not mean the info is any less accurate. besides she can see things i just cannot pick up unless she points them out. its more accurate than if i did the work.

The symtom these corals show with the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles is the result of light exposure.

do you think it might be possible that it is protecting itself from bacterial invasion, like i mentioned, including its own flora. how would know if it is or not based on only what the naked eye see's. sorry, it just sounds like your fixed on your interpretations of what you think is causing its issues and closed to other causes. its encouraging to hear about the success you have had with your corals but i think there is more to it, much more than light acclimation?

[cheeks69]

Originally Posted by charlesr1958

An elegance coral is an easy coral to keep, that is, if you have a heathly specimen to start out with. Moderate light and flow, reef grade water, and feed it at least once a week. If you buy one that is infected/contaminated, there is nothing much you can do to save it other than what you would normaly do and cross your fingers. Hopefully once the pathogen(s) are isolated, if they can be, it will lead to a cure or at least a prevention method. Untill such time, I would not suggest anyone buy one.

Chuck

Chuck I couldn't of said it better myself !
I was very fortunate to get a healthy Elegance and kept it for almost two years but eventually lost it in my second tank with a much better skimmer, stronger lighting and flow and not enough FOOD ! Unfortunately many LPS suffer the same fate such as Gonioporas, Heliofungias Trachyphyllias etc.

Most of the Elegance corals that I've seen in the last few years are showing these symptoms of swollen disk and retracted tentacles even before they reach our tanks, it appears to be happening at the wholesallers holding tanks and when I spoke to Eric Borneman through our partner site he said this problem isn't happening in the wild. I think this is a similar situation to what's been happening with Tridacnas and pinched mantle which appears to be a protozoan infection. The suggestion was emptying these holding tanks and bleaching them but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon unless the evidence is irrefutable.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by prow

aaahhh, dont think in such absolutes. there is a lot info that points to bacteria. the general consensious at Sea World is the "dirty" water (where most were collected in the past) might be the main problem. ones collected from deaper "cleanner" water react different than those from shallow waters. anyway, i was informed that their work has pointed to dialtons that feed on the mucus produced by the stressed coral which then grow and push the edges of the coral off its skeleton and allow opertunistic bac/pathongens to invade. the pathogen theroy does have merit and should not be dissmissed. your work at best is anecdotal, nothing more. you provide no proof just observations, which can be very missleading. how did you determine the skin was thicker? are you talking about the number of cells in a layer? the cell membranes, mucus membranes? what is thicker?


based on dropping corals in various light conditions? how do you know its not something else like protecting itself from invading pathogens including overactivity of its normal flora? could it be inflammation, if so what triggered the inflammatioin proccess? you can not determine this by only watching the coral.

I worry about you. What triggers this proccess is light. If you remove a coral from a relatively low light area and place it under Mh lighting and it begins to swell up in seconds, then it only stands to reason that the light did it. If you do this multiple times with several different individuals and they all react the same way is it not safe to say that the light did it? Why this takes place is arguable. To keep these corals alive and healthy I don't need to know why. All I need is to know it takes place.

how did you come up with it? so far you only give anecdotal evidence based on observations. which is good to know and helpful, but not fact and open to interpretation.

did not just read. true i did not do my own expirements but the people i have talked to and visited with did. i was able to follow some of those projects and visit the facilities anytime to get updates, still can and do. FYI i trust Shelly at sea world and i do not need to look in the microscope myself. that does not mean the info is any less accurate. besides she can see things i just cannot pick up unless she points them out. its more accurate than if i did the work.
do you think it might be possible that it is protecting itself from bacterial invasion, like i mentioned, including its own flora. how would know if it is or not based on only what the naked eye see's. sorry, it just sounds like your fixed on your interpretations of what you think is causing its issues and closed to other causes. its encouraging to hear about the success you have had with your corals but i think there is more to it, much more than light acclimation?

If it was the dirty water like you sugest wouldn't this be a benefit to people trying to keep these corals today? Most aquariums today are far cleaner then the ones we kept long ago. These corals from cleaner water, as you put it, would be better suited to the clean aquariums of today. I don't understand your logic here.
"My work is at best anecdotal, nothing more." Are you okay? If I can spend a year and a half placing these corals in different environments and determining what works and what doesn't. The out come is far from anecdotal. 90% of all animal research is observation. Universities and private organizations spend millions each year to send people all over the world to Observe animals. This is how we learn how they react in different environments, how they mate, and what they need to survive. This type of work is the backbone of our understanding of the animal kingdom. It is hardly anecdotal. Through my observations I have learned how to care for these corals and keep them alive when most others fail.

I said in my theory that I could not prove the part about the skin thickness. I don't need to. If we know that these corals are damaged far easier than the corals of old, then we can keep these corals away from things that can harm them. The thickness of their tissue is the only logical explanation I coud come up with to account for this. It is far from fact and this is why I presented it that way.
I worry about you. What triggers this proccess is light. If you remove a coral from a relatively low light area and place it under Mh lighting and it begins to swell up in seconds, then it only stands to reason that the light did it. If you do this multiple times with several different individuals and they all react the same way is it not safe to say that the light did it? Why this takes place is arguable. To keep these corals alive and healthy I don't need to know why. All I need is to know it takes place.

The whole reason I started this research was to find out how to care for them and to pass that knowledge on to others. It has taken me a very long time a way to much money, but I can safely say that I am done with this portion of my research. I know how to care for them and am willing to tell those that are interested how they too can keep these corals alive and healthy. There will be those like yourself that want to belittle the work I have done. I can only hope that you don't buy any Elegance corals.
You can choose to believe what ever you like. All I can do is tell people that I can keep them alive and healthy and this is how I do it.

[boozeman]

Gentlemen, I don't think anyone here is out to belittle any one else. So far the discussion has been both lively and informative
....another part in the puzzle.... there are reefers with zero nutrient/ high intensity lighting systems on the zeovit forum that have kept these corals for years

[mps9506]

There is absolutly no proof that the protazoans found living in dead or dieing corals is the reason for thier demise. All that anyone can say is that they found them. No one knows what they are or what thier function is. If they were parasites eating these corals alive I would not have a tank full of corals that are improving every day. No matter what these protazoans are or how they live, I can safely say that they are not the cause of the problem.

There hasn't been much follow up out there on this subject. I don't think one could safely rule it out, or say it is a definite cause. Again it is simply a theory that has not been tested for and until it is tested for, I really don't think anyone can honestly say it is or is not a protozoan causing these problems.

If you take an Elegance that has been living near its maximum depth where it recieved a limited amount of light and throw them into a tank with bright MH lighting it will die in a very short time. The symtom these corals show with the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles is the result of light exposure.

This is true of ANY coral. Can we definitely say that the shrunken tentacles and the inflated oral disc is a symptom of light exposure? Or is bleaching the symptom of over exposure to light? Or both?
For this to be tested correctly one would have to obtain an already healthy, tank acclimated specimens and increase light exposure by whatever amount it is assumed they are being exposed to. IE, take light intensity measurements of where these corals are collected and compare them to what they are exposed to in aquariums. Find out how much of a change in light intensity it takes to cause these symptoms to appear.

I believe you are correct that light intensity is a very important factor in keeping these corals alive long term. However there has been much question of why these corals show these symptoms between collection and retail channels? I know most of my wholesalers did not keep corals for more than a week, most were in one day and out within two or three days. Why would an elegance coral show these symptoms after such a short time other than the obvious stress of shipping?

Definitely not trying to say you are right or wrong, just trying to keep the discussion open to different thought

[prow]

Originally Posted by elegance coral

If it was the dirty water like you sugest wouldn't this be a benefit to people trying to keep these corals today? Most aquariums today are far cleaner then the ones we kept long ago. These corals from cleaner water, as you put it, would be better suited to the clean aquariums of today. I don't understand your logic here.

you missed the point. its not dirty water, its not lighting. its a stressed coral that reacts to whatever environmental conditions exist. the most obvious reaction is mucus secreations. bacteria eat and weaken the coral allowing pathogens to invade. the exact cause is not so much what stressed it but what happend after it was stressed. not all die after being stressed but the death rate is increasing and its not because of lighting.

"My work is at best anecdotal, nothing more." Are you okay? If I can spend a year and a half placing these corals in different environments and determining what works and what doesn't. The out come is far from anecdotal. 90% of all animal research is observation. Universities and private organizations spend millions each year to send people all over the world to Observe animals. This is how we learn how they react in different environments, how they mate, and what they need to survive. This type of work is the backbone of our understanding of the animal kingdom. It is hardly anecdotal. Through my observations I have learned how to care for these corals and keep them alive when most others fail.

am i ok,sure. but...hummm, before you get offended by a word you do not understand first look it up. here is link on what anecdotal evidence is. Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia did not mean to offend you, sorry if i did. but your work is anecdotal, not good or bad it just is anecdotal.

I said in my theory that I could not prove the part about the skin thickness. I don't need to. If we know that these corals are damaged far easier than the corals of old, then we can keep these corals away from things that can harm them. The thickness of their tissue is the only logical explanation I coud come up with to account for this. It is far from fact and this is why I presented it that way.

you might not know and only logical explanation you can think of because you "dont need to"

I worry about you. What triggers this proccess is light.

dont worry about me. your idea about the light triggering it is wrong. this happens, its well documented, in the presents of direct light, in shaded corals, highlighting and low lighting. under all light types the issue remains.

If you remove a coral from a relatively low light area and place it under Mh lighting and it begins to swell up in seconds, then it only stands to reason that the light did it. If you do this multiple times with several different individuals and they all react the same way is it not safe to say that the light did it?

so will just about every coral. even mushes. i am not sure your getting it. its not external stimuli its internal triggers. sure lighting starts the inflammation, as in just about all corals, but its not what triggers the proccess. something that gets released internally in response to external stimuli is the trigger.

Why this takes place is arguable. To keep these corals alive and healthy I don't need to know why. All I need is to know it takes place.

as it does in most corals. its not a mystery as to why. the elegance issue is though.

The whole reason I started this research was to find out how to care for them and to pass that knowledge on to others. It has taken me a very long time a way to much money, but I can safely say that I am done with this portion of my research. I know how to care for them and am willing to tell those that are interested how they too can keep these corals alive and healthy.

a good reason to start. sharing your experience is always a good thing.

There will be those like yourself that want to belittle the work I have done. I can only hope that you don't buy any Elegance corals.

why so mad. i am not trying to belilttle the work you have done. you give info like "its the lighting thats the trigger" but no proof. i am just challeging your findings.

You can choose to believe what ever you like. All I can do is tell people that I can keep them alive and healthy and this is how I do it.

its not what i beleive its just the facts. stating what you did is fine. but stating "What triggers this proccess is light" is not accurate and missleading.

[prow]

just a little something so no flames creap up on us. i may not post in the most polite ways alway, but its not meant to be mean. really. my first post on this thread was defending elegance coral observations and what could be seen as thick skin. did not mean to belittle anything you have done elegance coral. infact i find it admirable that you put in so much effort. yes i do disagree with some of your conclusions and how you came to them but, still i repect the work you have done.

[cheeks69]

IME corals LPS in particular when exposed to intense light levels without proper light acclimation will bleach and have tissue recessation not swell up and retract it's tentacles. My Elegance was in a small tank with PC's and switched to 250 w MH and it never bleached and only retracted in time. The unhealthy one's that have become common place more recently will show these symptoms and usually die fairly quickly it's definitely not a slow process.

[charlesr1958]

Did it ever occur to anyone that the corals shown and discussed were never infected/effected by the problem(s) the corals are having? But simply going through a rough time as a good many species do when purchased? The bleaching is what made me think of that since the "elegance coral problem" as far as I know, does not involve the coral bleaching.
I had hoped to be able to find the electron microscope photos that Eric had shown me as they clearly show a suspect organism within the coral's tissue, but where they were posted has been redirected to another site, which does not have them. I'll ask him if he could email me a few and see if he will allow them out in public yet.
The problems corals have when not properly light acclimated is well known and I won't go there or repeat it once again. But will say that the elegance corals in the wild do recieve a great deal more intensity than thought. As I've said before, I find a good many of them in ten feet of water recieving a full days sun while others are found a bit deeper also recieving the same light period (no shading by rocks). Nutrient rich water is a non-issue to me as well since I can not detect any such nutrients in the water they live in. Yes, the water is turbid, visibility on a bad day can be down to 20 feet, on average though, 75 to 100 feet is the norm. The turbidity is caused by detritus, plankton and sand particles. Being a fringing reef, this is normal. See here for more details.
I, like the others, am not trying to belittle or insult anyone, I may sound rough, but that is just me trying to get to the point.
Your observations are ancedotal and have little to no meaning for others, the basic care of most corals is well known and should not be confused as a cure for what ails the elegance corals. Yes, observations and sharing of them are nice, but on the down side, someone could read your post, and assume that it is indeed worth the risk of getting or buying an infected coral with the intentions of following your "theory". Such a thing is only setting others up for failure and causing the loss of even more corals. Buy one, they collect another.
I also, am very inclined to believe that the problem is indeed one of an infection. I have to ask myself why I only ever see healthy corals? It seems a bit obvious that when they are collected, they are being put into contaminated holding vessels and the collectors have yet to catch up to that fact and do something about it. This is the same reason you all are still fighting Ich as well. Why have I yet to see Ich on a wild caught fish that I catch myself and just throw straight into my tank? I have never had a problem with Ich, but if the collectors are housing the captured fish in contaminated tanks, they are in effect, getting an Ich dip each time they hit a new holding tank, ensuring that you will forever be battling that problem while I never see it myself.
In short, this thread is I believe, way off target and can easily assume other factors as being the cause of the noted problems and their recovery based upon the simple fact of their being under better conditions or allowed the time to recover on their own. One can not assume or prove it being the "elegance coral disease", not by simple observations at least. Anyways, I gotta go, time to go diving!!!!

Chuck

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by boozeman

Gentlemen, I don't think anyone here is out to belittle any one else. So far the discussion has been both lively and informative
....another part in the puzzle.... there are reefers with zero nutrient/ high intensity lighting systems on the zeovit forum that have kept these corals for years

I too have kept Elegance corals under very bright light for many years. This is why when I first started this research I was dead set against the idea that light was the problem. From what I have been told, people have been keeping these corals collected in Australia under bright light with no side affects. In Australia they don't need to dive to great depths to collect these corals. They are adapted to bright light just like the corals we recieved in the hobby years ago. The problem we are haveing today with corals collected in other areas is that they come from deeper water. They are not given the time they need to adapt to the brighter lights of our aquariums.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by mps9506

There hasn't been much follow up out there on this subject. I don't think one could safely rule it out, or say it is a definite cause. Again it is simply a theory that has not been tested for and until it is tested for, I really don't think anyone can honestly say it is or is not a protozoan causing these problems.

If we can say that the protazoans found in these corals are having an affect on the corals ability to adapt to different lighting or that they cause these corals to be more prone to physical damage then I may be able to understand how they could play a role in this. I have been unable to find any other symtoms that I could contribute to these protazoans. At least before they become burnt by bright light.


This is true of ANY coral. Can we definitely say that the shrunken tentacles and the inflated oral disc is a symptom of light exposure? Or is bleaching the symptom of over exposure to light? Or both?
For this to be tested correctly one would have to obtain an already healthy, tank acclimated specimens and increase light exposure by whatever amount it is assumed they are being exposed to. IE, take light intensity measurements of where these corals are collected and compare them to what they are exposed to in aquariums. Find out how much of a change in light intensity it takes to cause these symptoms to appear..[/quote]

I agree. The only problem is that the outcome of such a study would be of little use to the average hobbiest. Most of us don't own PAR meters. If we could put numbers to the exceptable range of light these corals can withstand when newly interduced to our aquarium, we would have no way of knowing if our aquariums were within this range or not.

If you place one of these corals under bright light it will begin to swell in minutes if not seconds. If it is quickly removed and placed in less light the swelling will begin to go down. I have repeated this several times with several individuals with the same results.

I believe you are correct that light intensity is a very important factor in keeping these corals alive long term. However there has been much question of why these corals show these symptoms between collection and retail channels? I know most of my wholesalers did not keep corals for more than a week, most were in one day and out within two or three days. Why would an elegance coral show these symptoms after such a short time other than the obvious stress of shipping? [/quote]

I talked to a lady that said she was on the boat durring a collecting expadition. By the time the Elegance corals made it to the boat they were showing the signs of an over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles. She believed that this was caused by the difference in pressure from where they were collected. From what I have seen in my own aquarium I would expect this reaction. Not from pressure but the bright sun light at the surface of the water. This symptom is not a permanent one. It only seems to exist while the coral is under lights that are to intense. If the light is reduced the swelling will go down. The bad thing is that damage my have allready been caused. The healing process after such an incident may take a great deal of time.

Definitely not trying to say you are right or wrong, just trying to keep the discussion open to different thought [/quote]

[charlesr1958]

"They are not given the time they need to adapt to the brighter lights of our aquariums"

Which is easily solved by any number of well known light acclimation procedures and is, yet again, nothing new and is something that should be done for all newly purchased/collected corals. I never have to do so myself simply because the corals I collect are coming from being under the sun to going into much less intensity in my tank. BUT.. those that have been shipped, have spent a good deal of time (usualy) under less than ideal lighting and need to be reacclimated to the intensity most tanks (halides) have. No big mystery there. All of this has nothing to do with the "elegance coral problem" either. This is just a problem of not acclimating a coral to its new conditions, or of having another stress event such as high temperatures.

Chuck

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

IME corals LPS in particular when exposed to intense light levels without proper light acclimation will bleach and have tissue recessation not swell up and retract it's tentacles. My Elegance was in a small tank with PC's and switched to 250 w MH and it never bleached and only retracted in time. The unhealthy one's that have become common place more recently will show these symptoms and usually die fairly quickly it's definitely not a slow process.

I had never seen these symptoms eather. Until I started this research. If these corals are left in the environment that caused them to become ill they will die very quickly. If the exposure is great enough and held long enough even after the coral is removed it may still die. If you would have kept your PC's your Elegance may still be alive today.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by charlesr1958

"They are not given the time they need to adapt to the brighter lights of our aquariums"

Which is easily solved by any number of well known light acclimation procedures and is, yet again, nothing new and is something that should be done for all newly purchased/collected corals. I never have to do so myself simply because the corals I collect are coming from being under the sun to going into much less intensity in my tank. BUT.. those that have been shipped, have spent a good deal of time (usualy) under less than ideal lighting and need to be reacclimated to the intensity most tanks (halides) have. No big mystery there. All of this has nothing to do with the "elegance coral problem" either. This is just a problem of not acclimating a coral to its new conditions, or of having another stress event such as high temperatures.

Chuck

It is something new. Many corals are dieing because people don't know what the symptoms they are seeing are caused from. If they read this and see their Elegance begining to swell up they should know to move the coral to a slightly dimmer portion of the tank. If they see tiny white strings comming from their coral it is due to the coral having holes in its tissue. They should remove what ever caused this problem. I have 8 Elegance corals that I have put through @#%$*. They are all recovering at this point. If I can keep them alive after deliberately placing them in unhealthy environments, then people should be able to keep these corals alive and healthy if they know what environment they need to survive. Untill now no one knew how to keep these corals alive. I have no fear of buying an Elegance that appears healthy in my LFS. If you watch these corals they will tell you when they are unhappy. If you know what the different signs mean then you can adjust their environment accordingly. I have no magic pill I give my corals that keep them alive. If given the proper environment the coral will do the rest.