Reef Sanctuary - View Single Post - Aragite

Boomer · 01-25-2007, 01:12 PM

Many of you seem to be agreeing and then disagreeing on the same point

A reef tank is not a reef tank by far. I think what is going on here is a debate more on the order of grades of LR. Of course base rock can turn into LR but it will not nor will ever be on the order of oceanic base rock any more than you reef tank will end up as like oceanic reef. PhilOlsen is correct on some of his statements but there is more to it than that.

If one did a biodiversity count on the meiofauna of a oceanic LR and base rock, which has been kept in the aquarium for a few years, you will not have the same biodiversity. No, I have never seen such a study. I don't' need to, it follows the same rule as why we can't get many fish and inverts to breed in a reef tank. The question is do you really need all that biodiversity and the answer is no.

One point that is missed here to a degree. The biodiversity counts of LR vs base LR will merge in time to being almost the same. Note I said biodiversity which is not population density. The LR will loose its biodiversity and the base will increase its biodiversity. So, if one wanted to maximize their biodiversity one would need to change their oceanic LR ever so many years. The question is do you need to and the answer is no again. A new system with base LR will never be able to compete with a new system with oceanic LR. Thus, it is best to start a new system with oceanic LR and add base rock to it, which is a choice. If one wants to use only oceanic LR have at it. And another point there is even a big difference in oceanic LR i.e collecting rock at location x, y or z is not the same in biodiversity or population density.

I do not think people understand or know how complicated oceanic LR really is. There is actually a book on the subject. I have a copy

Introduction to the Study of the Meiofauna, Higgins, Robert P. and Hjalmar T.

Capone, D. G., S. E. Dunham, S. G. Horrigan, and L. E. Duguay. 1992. Microbial nitrogen transformation in unconsolidated reef sediments. Marine Ecology Progress Series. 80: 75-88.

Risk, M. J. and Muller, H. R. 1983. Porewater in Coral Heads: Evidence for Nutrient Regeneration. Limnology and Oceanography, 28: 1004-1008.

Kohn, A. J. and M. C. Lloyd. 1973a. Polychaetes of Truncated Reef Limestone Substrates on Eastern Indian Ocean Coral Reefs: Diversity, Abundance, and Taxonomy. Int. Revue ges. Hydrobiologie. 58: 369-399.

Kohn, A. J. and M. C. Lloyd. 1973b. Marine Polychaete Annelids of Easter Island. Int. Revue ges. Hydrobiologie. 58: 691-712.

Odum H. T. and E. P. Odum. 1955. Trophic Structure and Productivity of a Windward Coral Reef Community on Eniwetok Atoll. Ecological Monographs. 25: 291-320.

Fauchald, K. 1977. The polychaete worms; definitions and keys to the orders, families, and genera. Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. Los Angeles, CA.

Fauchald, K. and P. Jumars. 1979. The diet of worms: a study of polychaete feeding guilds. Oceanography and Marine Biology Annual Review.

What do these studies have to do with comparing oceanic LR to reef tank base live rock ? An all these studies are also old an out dated. Much may have changed since then.

The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates (Volume 1)

I hope it will go into more detail, he almost explains "seeding" as what I think of as curing.

Seeding is taking something like LR and putting it in with dead rock which then becomes LR. Curing is cleaning LR rock of the the dead material or animals that it may have on it so it is less likely to foul the tank. These are the two definitions most go by. But yes, Charles term for seeding, a rather poor choice of words, is the same as your term for curing.

You should get all 3 vols

reefitsu
It seems to me at this point, you have read a hypothesis and took it for a statement of fact

Yes I would have to agree but you "seem" to be disagreeing with Ron's' hypothesis

I'll bet anything he is correct.

Witt
Aquacultured rock with a good growth of animals on its surface should be as good as natural rock when it comes to biological filtration

Agree but the debate here seems to be "the same as" vs "as good as" which is not the same thing. But all we are interested in is "as good as". A lower biodiversity can accomplish the same as a higher biodiversity, as long as we are talking within reason.

01-25-2007, 01:12 PM	#40 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,279 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Aragite - An alternative to Live Rock? Many of you seem to be agreeing and then disagreeing on the same point A reef tank is not a reef tank by far. I think what is going on here is a debate more on the order of grades of LR. Of course base rock can turn into LR but it will not nor will ever be on the order of oceanic base rock any more than you reef tank will end up as like oceanic reef. PhilOlsen is correct on some of his statements but there is more to it than that. If one did a biodiversity count on the meiofauna of a oceanic LR and base rock, which has been kept in the aquarium for a few years, you will not have the same biodiversity. No, I have never seen such a study. I don't' need to, it follows the same rule as why we can't get many fish and inverts to breed in a reef tank. The question is do you really need all that biodiversity and the answer is no. One point that is missed here to a degree. The biodiversity counts of LR vs base LR will merge in time to being almost the same. Note I said biodiversity which is not population density. The LR will loose its biodiversity and the base will increase its biodiversity. So, if one wanted to maximize their biodiversity one would need to change their oceanic LR ever so many years. The question is do you need to and the answer is no again. A new system with base LR will never be able to compete with a new system with oceanic LR. Thus, it is best to start a new system with oceanic LR and add base rock to it, which is a choice. If one wants to use only oceanic LR have at it. And another point there is even a big difference in oceanic LR i.e collecting rock at location x, y or z is not the same in biodiversity or population density. I do not think people understand or know how complicated oceanic LR really is. There is actually a book on the subject. I have a copy Introduction to the Study of the Meiofauna, Higgins, Robert P. and Hjalmar T. Capone, D. G., S. E. Dunham, S. G. Horrigan, and L. E. Duguay. 1992. Microbial nitrogen transformation in unconsolidated reef sediments. Marine Ecology Progress Series. 80: 75-88. Risk, M. J. and Muller, H. R. 1983. Porewater in Coral Heads: Evidence for Nutrient Regeneration. Limnology and Oceanography, 28: 1004-1008. Kohn, A. J. and M. C. Lloyd. 1973a. Polychaetes of Truncated Reef Limestone Substrates on Eastern Indian Ocean Coral Reefs: Diversity, Abundance, and Taxonomy. Int. Revue ges. Hydrobiologie. 58: 369-399. Kohn, A. J. and M. C. Lloyd. 1973b. Marine Polychaete Annelids of Easter Island. Int. Revue ges. Hydrobiologie. 58: 691-712. Odum H. T. and E. P. Odum. 1955. Trophic Structure and Productivity of a Windward Coral Reef Community on Eniwetok Atoll. Ecological Monographs. 25: 291-320. Fauchald, K. 1977. The polychaete worms; definitions and keys to the orders, families, and genera. Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. Los Angeles, CA. Fauchald, K. and P. Jumars. 1979. The diet of worms: a study of polychaete feeding guilds. Oceanography and Marine Biology Annual Review. What do these studies have to do with comparing oceanic LR to reef tank base live rock ? An all these studies are also old an out dated. Much may have changed since then. The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates (Volume 1) I hope it will go into more detail, he almost explains "seeding" as what I think of as curing. Seeding is taking something like LR and putting it in with dead rock which then becomes LR. Curing is cleaning LR rock of the the dead material or animals that it may have on it so it is less likely to foul the tank. These are the two definitions most go by. But yes, Charles term for seeding, a rather poor choice of words, is the same as your term for curing. You should get all 3 vols reefitsu It seems to me at this point, you have read a hypothesis and took it for a statement of fact Yes I would have to agree but you "seem" to be disagreeing with Ron's' hypothesis I'll bet anything he is correct. Witt Aquacultured rock with a good growth of animals on its surface should be as good as natural rock when it comes to biological filtration Agree but the debate here seems to be "the same as" vs "as good as" which is not the same thing. But all we are interested in is "as good as". A lower biodiversity can accomplish the same as a higher biodiversity, as long as we are talking within reason. __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.