Vinegar, Kalk and Argonite.

Squatch XXL

Well-Known Member
I am reading that people will use vinegar added to their kalk top-off to increase missing calcium AND a carbon source without affecting the PH. Seems like an effective method to cheaply increase calcium. However, calcium is only part of it. Would saturating vinegar with dissolved crushed coral provide more minerals for the tank than just kalk?
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
It's interesting you mention vinegar and crushed coral. In essence, this is how a calcium reactor works. The reactor mixes CO2 with crushed coral and water. The result is a very low pH because of the CO2, which dissolves the crushed coral. The water then leaves the calcium reactor, now with the coral pieces dissolved into it, and the resultant calcium and carbonate gets added back to the aquarium via the reactor's effulent. To your point, some people conjecture that by dissolving actual coral skeletons, you're adding some sort trace elements or minerals that the corals may need, but I don't know if this has be conclusively proven. With the advent of ICP testing like that offered by Triton, it would be interesting to see if the reactor effulent actually does contain elevated trace mineral levels.

I suppose the same principle could be achieved with vinegar, however, I think the main issue is that vinegar is a very weak acid. Store-bought vinegar is typically only a 5% acetic acid solution. This would partially dissolve the outer layer of the crushed coral, but I don't think it would completely dissolve all of the calcium carbonate into solution before the acid was neutralized. The trouble then is that you're dosing a lot of an organic carbon source (vinegar), which may or may not be desirable in your situation.

If you really want the minerals that may be locked in the coral skeletons, I'd go for a calcium reactor. Keep in mind that while these devices work very well, they are very complex. Much more simple methods (2-part, kalk) exist for maintaining calcium and carbonate levels. Personally, I think a Ca reactor is a lot of hassle just for these ancillary "trace elements." Which again, I don't know if we're really sure if they actually are present in any meaningful quantities. But that's just my $0.02.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Excellent post by @chipmunkofdoom2.

Adding vinegar to the kalk top off water is something that has been done for awhile. I didn't see where it made that much difference. You'll get a bit more calcium, but unless your tank is borderline it's not enough to do the job.

Go with a calcium reactor if you really need a lot more calcium. Usually only systems with a lot of SPS corals or clams need this. A calcium reactor is expensive to get, but once it's going it's going, it's inexpensive to run.
 

Squatch XXL

Well-Known Member
I was going to vinegar douse my smaller tank as an experiment. It can add missing calcium quickly, and didn't know if anyone tried it with CC. I can add it to the ATO, and really only deal with it once a week. I don't use calcium that much yet, but it would simplify adding it to makeup. I am going to be doing this, just for giggles. Rumors about carbon dousing is that corals colors look better. I am willing to take a try.

Tank is currently using heavy teaspoon of kalk/week and maintaining 450-460 ppm calcium.

Is Vinegar & CC the same as kalk, or is there other minerals that would become part of the solution?



I haven't been able to find out how much kalk will dissolve in 5% vinegar totally neutralized. I would assume that the amount of CC would be the same. I may have to just expand a set amount of solution out and measure from there.
*****Edit: I am reading that 250g of Kalk will totally dissolve in 1 gallon of water*****
 
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DaveK

Well-Known Member
Crushed coral and kalk are completely different. Kalk is calcium hydroxide. It is not very soluble in water and very alkaline. Crushed coral is mostly calcium carbonate but may contain a lot of additional things. I wouldn't consider them interchangeable, but they are used for similar things in a reef system.
 

mr_tap_water

Well-Known Member
@chipmunkofdoom2
If you're saying it May work on the same principal of a calcium reactor surely that would then when the calcium is increased the KH and maybe a slight increase in mag Will increase to into your system especially if it lowering the PH and dissolving the media, and would probably be better off just buying a calcium booster.


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Squatch XXL

Well-Known Member
I suppose the same principle could be achieved with vinegar, however, I think the main issue is that vinegar is a very weak acid.
It surely wont dissolve much CC, but it will fix the PH. In my system, it may just be enough to keep up with demand. It seems like a simple thing to do to a vinegar before you dump it into the system, and it is good to know that it doesn't take a lot to neutralize the vinegar.
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
It surely wont dissolve much CC, but it will fix the PH. In my system, it may just be enough to keep up with demand. It seems like a simple thing to do to a vinegar before you dump it into the system, and it is good to know that it doesn't take a lot to neutralize the vinegar.

Also, sorry I think I missed it, what is the specific concern with regard to pH?

@chipmunkofdoom2
If you're saying it May work on the same principal of a calcium reactor surely that would then when the calcium is increased the KH and maybe a slight increase in mag Will increase to into your system especially if it lowering the PH and dissolving the media, and would probably be better off just buying a calcium booster.


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You're absolutely right. Calcium additives are very cheap and very simple.

I actually am not a huge fan of calcium reactors or kalkwasser in general because of the issues you raise. Both calcium reactors and kalk (and also, vinegar-crushed-coral-dosing) raise calcium and carbonate (alkalinity) levels. Generally, your corals will use these elements in about equal proportions, so this is usually fine. However, there are many instances in which your consumption may be out of balance. In these cases, not only do you need to maintain your kalk or calcium reactor to continue dosing your baseline, you now must also start dosing two-part to get the calcium or carbonate (alkalinity) levels balanced again.

Calcium reactors and kalkwasser are both excellent methods for supplementing calcium and carbonate. They just are a bit to complex for my liking. I prefer a separate calcium and carbonate source so that I can manually adjust both as necessary. This is just my personal taste though.. as I said, kalk and Ca reactors are both fine ways of supplementing carbonate (alkalinity) and calcium.
 

mr_tap_water

Well-Known Member
Also, sorry I think I missed it, what is the specific concern with regard to pH?



You're absolutely right. Calcium additives are very cheap and very simple.

I actually am not a huge fan of calcium reactors or kalkwasser in general because of the issues you raise. Both calcium reactors and kalk (and also, vinegar-crushed-coral-dosing) raise calcium and carbonate (alkalinity) levels. Generally, your corals will use these elements in about equal proportions, so this is usually fine. However, there are many instances in which your consumption may be out of balance. In these cases, not only do you need to maintain your kalk or calcium reactor to continue dosing your baseline, you now must also start dosing two-part to get the calcium or carbonate (alkalinity) levels balanced again.

Calcium reactors and kalkwasser are both excellent methods for supplementing calcium and carbonate. They just are a bit to complex for my liking. I prefer a separate calcium and carbonate source so that I can manually adjust both as necessary. This is just my personal taste though.. as I said, kalk and Ca reactors are both fine ways of supplementing carbonate (alkalinity) and calcium.
Talking of keeping things in balance I asked this question to Randy Holmes this is what he replied.
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