Undetectable issues with my tank - ideas?

kyley

Active Member
Hi All,
I'm in need of some assistance from the experts here as I'm having issues with some corals lately - primarily the easiest of corals - zoanthids. I'm providing a lot of detail so you can help troubleshoot, so I apologize if this gets long. :) I've been running a Red Sea Max 250 (65 gallon) since December (nearly 8 months now). I'm a careful reefer - I've stocked my tank slowly, I iodine dip new corals, I quarantine new fish, I research all my purchases, etc. I've done all I can do to maintain the best possible water quality (most of this was setup months ago) - here's my setup:
  • I upgraded the stock skimmer to a Euro-Reef / Nano-Reef 2-pump skimmer
  • I added a basket with Chaeto to the DT for nutrient export (plan on a fuge eventually).
  • If anything, I think I underfeed rather than overfeed (always been careful with that). Plus, I rinse all my frozen food in RO/DI before adding to the tank.
  • I replaced the media shelf bags with a TLF media reactor and use Bulk Reef Supply ROX carbon, High Capacity GFO, and SeaChem Purigen in the reactor (also a bit of SeaChem SeaGel [carbon/phosguard mix] too).
  • Added Vortech MP20, Koralia 1, and Koralia 2 for good flow throughout the tank
  • I do regular 10-20% water changes every week.
  • I run a chiller to maintain a stable temperature (80 degrees).
  • About 73 pounds of rock (55 was live rock); 69 pounds of sand (29 was live sand) is in the tank
  • I have a dosing pump that keeps Alk, Ca, and pH stable and Mg is dosed with my ATO water; pH is monitored with a pH probe.
  • I have an ATO to keep salinity constant
  • I use a 5-stage RO/DI unit that reports 0 TDS.
Current tank stats:
  • Alk is usually 8.6-9.3; Ca is 420-460; Mg is 1280-1320; Salinity is 1.026
  • pH range is about 8.22 (night) - 8.38 (day) typically on the highest and lowest ranges.
  • ATO keeps salinity stable at 1.026.
  • Since cycling, I've never had Nitrates detectable above 2 (with Salifert test kit - but almost always 0) or 0 (with API test kit). Nitrites, Ammonia, and Phosphates (API test) have never been detectable either. I've tested my freshly mixed SW and have 0 on all these there too.
  • Inhabitants are in my sig - but 5 small fish, about 20+ snails, 6 hermits, 1 emerald crab, 2 shrimp, 1 crocea clam, and a lot of corals.
  • No algae issues - tiny amounts of hair algae in a couple places, but nothing more and it's not growing. Cyano has been a problem though.
  • I've never lost a fish in my DT, and other than zoanthids and a blue clove polyp frag that I had for awhile - and a couple frags that didn't last at all - I haven't lost any other corals. I've lost some snails (normal right?) and an urchin, but no crabs or other motile inverts.
My problems:
  • Mainly zoanthids and palys. They all seem to be unhealthy (many unopened, apparently tissue has melted as there are now isolated polyps, etc.). Many months ago I had zoa nudis - got rid of them with Iodine dips. I had zoa pox - got rid of that with Furan-2 dips. About a month ago I started having brown gunk (apparently a brown jelly type disease after researching) on them - it appears I successfully got rid of that too with hydrogen peroxide and freshwater dips. I don't see any zoa pox, nudis, or brown jelly now, but the zoas are clearly indicating something's wrong. For whatever reason, this easy coral has been very hard to keep! Does it sound like some kind of disease? Any ideas what I can do? I have about 8-10 colonies and pretty much all of them are not looking well.
  • My finger leather (specifically, green palau nephthea I believe) has been closed up for the past 3-4 days.
  • I've had a substantial case of cyano that I siphoned out, treated with Microbe-lift Special Blend (simply beneficial bacteria), etc., and essentially got rid of for a couple weeks. It's come back recently (not as bad as before though) - and I suspect the zoanthids dying may be part of the reason. At any rate, I've seen enough people with cyano, yet great water quality / test results, to become convinced that cyano is a stage some tanks go through (like diatoms) regardless of nitrate / phosphate levels.
  • A single green clove polyp (not GSP) is closed much of the time, though it does have a baby or two growing.
  • My Duncan colony has been closed much of the past couple days.
  • All SPS and LPS corals are looking fine, extending, and growing (the only exception being my Duncan which closed up a bit the past couple days). My mushrooms and ricordeas are doing great too. Toadstool leather has closed a bit, but not as bad as the finger leather.

Any ideas on what's going on / what I can do? I'm pulling my hair out because I'm doing all I can to keep great water quality, apparently am, but am having these issues (mainly the zoanthids)... Here's a picture of the zoanthids (you'll see some cyano, but I had cyano on the zoas previously and they never closed - so don't think that has anything to do with it):
dying_zoas.jpg


One thing I do plan to try (when my order comes in) is Coral RX on the zoas. It just seems maybe there's another problem that I'm not seeing... Thanks in advance,
--Kyle
 

Cassette87

Well-Known Member
Hmm... my first thought is to monitor the tank at night.. many types of coral don't play well together, and many have very long feeder tentacles that only extend at night. I would try to observe and see if there are any predators or questionable things going on at night.
 

kyley

Active Member
Thanks for the suggestion Andy. I'm a night owl so sometimes near the tank as late as 2 AM - don't see anything. At any rate, the zoas are in various places in my tank and most are plenty far from any aggressive corals. Take care,
--Kyle
 

Cassette87

Well-Known Member
Hmm..

Recently replace bulbs by any chance?
Is the flow near the zoanthids substantially different now with the mp20 vs before? Looks as though there is some cyano growing on them, which is usually indicative of low flow.
 

kyley

Active Member
Hey Andy,
They cyano grows a bit everywhere - low flow or not (my cyano doesn't seem to behave by quite the same rules as some others' ;) The flow setup has been as is for at least 4 months I think.

I haven't replaced the bulbs - but at 8 months I've considered doing that soon. At any rate, the SPS corals are doing fine - so I wouldn't expect there's really a light issue?

Thanks - keep the ideas coming! Take care,
--Kyle
 

Cassette87

Well-Known Member
Kyle,

I think you just targeted your own problem. The SPS' are doing well, but keep in mind that every creature responds differently to changes in light, and I would imagine a soft coral relies more on its symbiotic relationship with zooxanthellae than an sps.. I base this strictly on the sufrace area available on softies for zooxanthellae being much greater.

In other words, your lamps may have fallen out of the useful spectrum for your zoanthids.

I could be wrong, but this may be a good place to start, and when you do... cycle new bulbs in one a week, so you don't cause the opposite burning effect and finish them off.

Hope it helps! :)
 

kyley

Active Member
Hi All,
Thanks for the help Andy. I can't say what "fixed" the issue, but everything is back to normal in my tank (about all I did was dip the zoanthids in Coral RX - which may or may not have had anything to do with the recovery). I still have the original lights (but planning to replace them soon). I lost a few polyps of zoas from a few colonies, but everything has come back strong now - no closed polyps anywhere. :) My finger leather fully opened up again, same with the duncan colony and clove polyps. They've all been like that for weeks now, so everything seems very healthy! I guess I do have a couple big button polyps that have never seemed fully recovered, but they were a freebie frag anyway (could just be that they don't get enough light). Still battling some cyano too (that's been a nightmare of its own). Take care,
--Kyle
 

Corailline

Member
Could you be battling dino rather than cyno? When I had my dinoflaggelate issue the zoanthids where the first to go, the other corals were ok but the zoanthids took a huge hit. Boy! zoanthids eating nudibanchs, pox your zoas have had a rough road.
 

cbrownfish

Well-Known Member
1. If anything, I think I underfeed rather than overfeed (always been careful with that). Plus, I rinse all my frozen food in RO/DI before adding to the tank.

2. I replaced the media shelf bags with a TLF media reactor and use Bulk Reef Supply ROX carbon, High Capacity GFO, and SeaChem Purigen in the reactor (also a bit of SeaChem SeaGel [carbon/phosguard mix] too).

Based on the statements above, I suspect that you are running your nutrients to low and your Zoanthids/Palys are suffering badly because of it. Low nutrients + GFO + Purigen = Mad polyps.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...nthids-closed-care-pests-troubleshooting.html

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Everyone always preaches about high nutrients (NO3 & PO4) when discussing Cyanobacteria but I am here to tell you that organic matter is more to blame in the case of Cyano. I have run GFO/Purigen/media until my SPS corals turned white and Softies started to die from lack of N & P.....yet Cyano remained. I firmly believe that excess organic matter, like common detritus, is one of the primary things to look at when trying to pinpoint the cause. Whenever my rocks and/or sand start to take on cyano, I begin to religiously stir up the surface of the sand and blast off the rockwork. Everyone always says "increase flow", "avoid dead spots" and that is good advice. To my point, these dead areas and holes in the rock are places where organic matter will collect and modest flow will allow the organic matter to settle there.

I submit that the cyano "blankets" the organic matter and absorbs nutrients directly from it. The only thing that has ever been truly effective for me is: manual removal, stirring up the sand, blasting rockwork, siphoning detritus, increasing flow to keep organics suspended so your filtration (skimmer, mechanical) can remove it. You always need to be mindful of nutrient byproducts like NO3/PO4 but high levels more often lead to green algae IME. Tanks with Cyano may common have a modest clean up crew as well. A healthy population of sand dwelling snails like Nassarius, army of tiny blue legs, etc, will do wonders for rockwork and sand detritus/debris.
 

BigJay

Well-Known Member
. Everyone always says "increase flow", "avoid dead spots" and that is good advice. To my point, these dead areas and holes in the rock are places where organic matter will collect and modest flow will allow the organic matter to settle there.

I submit that the cyano "blankets" the organic matter and absorbs nutrients directly from it. .

yup and yup. cyano and hair algae are very good at this. Hair algae can actually build up a massive layer of decaying organics. No matter how clean the water it is it has enough material decaying in close proximity it can feed itself for plenty of time for other nutrients to happen by. I started a thread a while back called PAPHAI(point a power head at it). I'm a firm believer in you must blow the poop out of your rock work.
 
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