Treating marine Ich in main tank

Scientist

New Member
Let's talk about marine Ich for a moment.

Most (uninformed - ) hobbyists who believe that their marine fish have Ich ask about a way to treat it in the main tank. Most of the answers they receive is that the best and most effective way (some would say 'the only way') to get rid of Ich is to move all fish to a hospital tank and treat with copper or hypo.

This is true.

This post, however, is about a combination treatment that can be applied to the main display (reef - ) tank, and is rather effective in *managing* the infection. By that I mean, giving the fish enough time to handle a moderate infection so that they will likely develop immunity. If successful, the hobbyist can expect that Ich will still stay in the system, but will not be visible and fish will not succumb to it.

I am posting this because I have not seen others discuss this combination treatment here or on other forums, though of course I might have just missed it.

Briefly: Use Herbtana as directed for 4 weeks, and combine with feeding with Metroplex (and Focus).

At more length: Herbtana does not kill Ich. It makes it a bit more difficult for Ich to attach to fish. Treated alone it's (nearly) useless because it does not stop the infection and cannot stop the cycle.

Metroplex seems to be an effective drug in lab, but it is challenging to ensure that fish receive a full dosage each time. As a result, treated fish typically get somewhat better, but do not fully recover, thereby the cycle continues.

Together, these treatments compliment each other. Together, one can somewhat decrease the probability of new infection, and at the same time, kill most of Ich that managed to infect the fish.

Apply both for 4 weeks to manage the cycle.

To be clear: Hospital tank and copper (or hypo) are more effective. They are the preferred treatment choice for marine Ich. However, catching all fish is often impractical in a reef tank. The proposed combination of treatment is a reasonable alternative, with the understanding that the goal is to manage the infection, not to eradicate Ich.

At the successful conclusion of the proposed combination treatment the fish will be able to handle the parasite. Adding more fish may restart the cycle - that is a risk one takes when one chooses to manage rather than eradicate Ich. Yet, without adding fish (or introducing a major change which causes stress), low levels of Ich (invisible) can be managed for a long time.

Within 12-18 month, if no other source of Ich is added, the managed population of parasites is expected to become too inbred to survive and it may disappear entirely.

Hope this helps.
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
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to ReefSanctuary, a real Sanctuary of reef forums, with lots of very nice members

Start a tank thread & share your tank with us so we can follow along, we love pics :dance:

If interested... here some more good post on marine ich...
Lee Birch's (Chemist and Microbiologist) Advice on Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
I will start off by saying that I really hate to blast someone on their first post.

You are entitled to post your opinions, and have them talked about here, as am I.

In my opinion, there are no, none, zero, nada, medications that are both reef safe and effective in treating SW ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). We have several sticky treads where this has been talked about previously.

This is information on the disease
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/fish-with-white-spots-that-went-away.57175/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/curing-fish-of-marine-ich.52236/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/marine-ich-myths-and-facts.23132/

This is information on the two treatment methods that actually work, copper or hyposalinity
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/copper-treatment-use-problems.23130/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-hyposalinity-treatment-process.23131/

You might notice that most of these threads were written by Lee. Just so people realize that he's not your average reef keeper, here is a link to his bio -
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/lees-bio-a-k-a-leebca.45723/

Here is another article on the disease (offsite) -
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
Note the author is veterinarian and associate professor

I recommend everyone stick to the methods that are known to work, rather than wasting time using a non-effective method thus delaying treatment. Yes I know a quarantine tank is a pain to set up and treatment is a [insert favorite bad words here] to do, but you want to save your fish, and not damage the rest of your reef.
 

spiraling

Well-Known Member
I recommend everyone stick to the methods that are known to work

If everyone does the same thing, then how will we ever advance the hobby to better ideas?

While my tank does not currently have ich, and I'm not sure if i would or would not use the method above, I do enjoy reading the trials, both successful and not, of people who are trying new ideas. I prefer even more the more controlled experimental layout outlined in Lee's bio you posted.

Moving fish to quarantine then treating them is not 100% effective. I've read several posts recently of people who have lost many fish because of the stress of the move and/or ich and/or unknown reasons while they had ich. I have lost fish myself while they were in treatment with cupramine.

rather than wasting time using a non-effective method

But I'm not sure It's fair to call this treatment "non-effective" based on the information provided. The author is quite clear about differentiating his way is a 'management' strategy and not a 'cure', and I appreciate his post of new ideas for ich.
 

Dracko

Well-Known Member
True Dave, but it is nice to know that they have not stopped trying to come up with new solutions. I doubt I would ever risk this myself, but the "experimentation" may lead to newer, more effective treatment.
 

Scientist

New Member
I very much agree with the sentiment that one should know who is 'giving' the advice. My name is Yoav Gilad. I am a professor of Human Genetics at the University of Chicago (http://giladlab.uchicago.edu) -- my research has nothing to do with fish :)

I do have quite a lot of experience in this hobby, and have helped others manage Ich outbreaks. Let me reiterate, that I agree with the statement that fish have to be removed from a reef tank to cure Ich. My solution is to manage the infection, not cure it. My approach does work -- quite often without any fish loss.

When I say 'works' I mean that one will lose fewer fish this way (or none) before the signs of the infection with recede (invisible, but there) than if one would simply do nothing and rely on the natural immunity of the fish.

My approach makes sense (in my mind) when one already has all the livestock one needs, so no additions are expected in the foreseeable future (12-18 months) and the goal is to simply ride the infection through.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
If everyone does the same thing, then how will we ever advance the hobby to better ideas?...

But I'm not sure It's fair to call this treatment "non-effective" based on the information provided. The author is quite clear about differentiating his way is a 'management' strategy and not a 'cure', and I appreciate his post of new ideas for ich.

If someone is setting up a controlled experiment to see if a new treatment works, and publishes results that's one thing. When it's an guess and they sort of tried it, that's another. In the later case, the person might be correct, but the results are not evidence of the method working.

In my opinion any so called "management strategy" is totally invalid. If you don't cure it, you still have the problem, always there, just lurking to reinfect the system.

I will also say that no one has to agree with me, but I speaking from bitter experience with trying meds that didn't work, or wiped out the system. Some of this was in the pre-reef tank days, where corals and inverts were not a factor.

I would love to see a safe and effective treatment. So would everyone associated with the hobby, and everyone in the aquaculture industry. If one was ever found, it would take the industry by storm.
 

Scientist

New Member
Fair enough DaveK. Managing is a pain, as outbreak may come back. I simply argue that removing fish from a reef tank is also a pain... Many hobbyist still lose fish in a hospital tank -- they are probably not experienced enough, granted -- but it just means that they go through the pains of removing the fish and still lose livestock. I suggest an alternative that is associated with some risk, and requires vigilance, but it is an option (unlike, for example, treating with each reef-safe 'cure' separately, which really does nothing).
 

Dracko

Well-Known Member
Yoav. Am I hearing you right, that once a fish has survived and gotten rid of ich, they have an immunity to it thereafter? Or can they get it again? Is there more than one strain? If not and its true then would this not be something worth trying for someone who, as you say, has a set tank with no plans to change or add to it? How long can ich stay in a tank without a host before it is gone completely? Could this information lead to newer and better CURES for ich?
 

Scientist

New Member
Dracko - to the best of my knowledge, it is unknown if there are different strains of Ich, though it is suspected to be the case. The genome of the parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) has not yet been sequenced, and (unless I missed something) the only genetic material available is from a 2010 paper (BMC Genomics), where some gene expression data were collected.

That said, it is likely that any given outbreak in a tank has a single source, so a given hobbyist (assuming no recurring infection) is typically dealing with a single strain regardless.

Fish have some natural immunity to Ich. It is believed that they succumb to Ich in a tank much more often than they would in the ocean because the concentration of the parasite in secondary infections is so high. It is unknown whether fish can gain more effective immunity if they recover from the initial infection - perhaps this is the case to some extent (it is certainly been shown for other diseases and parasites). But something else is also going on -- the Ich itself becomes less virulent with successive generations. The reason is probably a combinations of fish immunity and inbreeding of the parasite - although, again, the genomes have not been sequenced to confirm this hypothesis.

It has been observed that when fish live for a while in a tank with Ich (not visible), new fish can get infected rapidly, while the 'older' fish take longer to show signs of infections (when all fish, new and old, are of the same species). This might suggest that - indeed - immunity does account for some of the management.

Hope this makes sense / helps.
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
I would love to see a safe and effective treatment. So would everyone associated with the hobby, and everyone in the aquaculture industry. If one was ever found, it would take the industry by storm.

+1 ^

Yoav - thanks for discussing your thoughts in a very "Reef Sanctuary" way... I have enjoyed the read, even though I don't know the answers and I still adhere to Lee Birch's advise who has headed up our Disease and Treatment forum, Lee has spend many years dedicated to this one subject (marine ich), since 1973.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?forums/fish-diseases-treatments.155/

I do see many lose fish while treating in a hospital tank - I believe because of stress.
Again thanks for discussing without flames & sharing in an open non-judgmental way :nessie: as this is one of the things that makes RS very special !

One great example
My approach makes sense (in my mind)
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
I think the word immunity is thrown around quite a bit without a full understanding of what immunity means when discussing marine ich, Cryptocaryon irritans, which is a protozoan. This has perplexed me over the last couple of years and so I've dug into recent published materials trying to determine the immune response some fish have had with C. irritans.

A parasite is an organism which lives on or in another organism called the host. The parasite needs the host to live, but the host gains no benefit from having the parasite. The 3 main classes of parasite are protozoa (unicellular organisms), worms, and arthropods (insects and arachnids).

In comparison to acute bacterial or viral infections, a parasitic infection lasts much longer due to their well-evolved and effective methods of avoiding the immune system, a parasite is successful if it can successfully avoid or subvert immune responses directed against it. Many parasites are able to survive years in a host causing little or minimal harm; however for some parasites it is beneficial to cause disease in the host.

Protozoan parasites, like C. irritans, that enter their host are often able to survive and multiply since they are able to adapt to the host's immune system.

Here are some ways in which Protozoan parasites cause immunity responses in their hosts:
  • Innate Immunity against Protozoa - These mechanisms include physical barriers such as skin, chemicals in the blood, and immune system cells that attack foreign cells in the body.
  • Acquired Immunity against Protozoa - Immunity acquired by infection or vaccination (active immunity) or by the transfer of antibody or lymphocytes from an immune donor (passive immunity). Acquired immunity is in contrast to innate immunity (natural immunity).
  • Protozoa Evasion of Immunity - The mechanisms that protozoa have evolved to avoid the immune system are:
    • The avoidance of attachment and phagocytosis
    • Immunosuppression of the host immune system (e.g. destruction of T cells)
    • The blockage of antigen presentation (Expression in association with MHC Class II)
    • Alter surface antigens (Antigenic variation)
    • Block surface antigen expression to avoid detection (Parasite coats itself with host proteins)
Resistance to parasitic protozoa appears to be similar to resistance against other infectious agents, although the mechanisms of resistance in protozoan infections seem to not yet be as well understood.

Knowing all of this would give us a better handle on how a fish can live with C. irritans.

Some fish are not completely protected by their own natural immunity. It is possible that immunity could protect the fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected by the aquarist. This is where the 'Ich is always present' argument comes into play and why sometimes an aquarist has recurring difficulties with this pathogen.

Stress is also a factor that needs to be taken into consideration. Stress can diminish the fish's immunity, enabling the parasite population to increase, resulting in a renewed outbreak and/or death.

So, in my struggles to understand immunity, how some fish have shown immunity and the possibility of multiple strains of C. irritans can make immunity difficult, in the back of my mind I was wondering about the connection with vaccines…?

In various other species, vaccinations to prevent possible protozoa infections have provided limited success, frequent boosters are needed and the vaccine must contain a mix of species and strains of protozoa to maximize its success.

And so coming full circle, the ability of fish to develop some level of immunity to C. irritans suggests that an immunological approach such as vaccination may be feasible. However, such a vaccination has yet to be developed. But, in further searching I found this patented vaccine produced from cDNA of C. irritans.

What does this all mean to those of us who have struggled with this protozoa parasite harming our fish?

Based on this information, it is possible that immunity could protect some species of fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected. It should be noted that not all fish species show that they can acquire this immunity, therefore there is a risk of a renewed outbreak and/or death. I believe that we have a responsibility, both morally and ethically, to treat any fish that is ailing. I believe it is inappropriate to do nothing. Until the day when vaccination becomes something that is easy to obtain and administer, the best way to not have to deal with breakouts is to use QT and hospital tanks and administering medication.

Here are some very good articles to read:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/11/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/12/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/1/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/2/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini

References:
  • Roy P. E. Yanong. Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish. Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences (SFRC). Fish Diseases. Publication #FA164.
  • Colorni, Angelo. 1987. "Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and Strategies for its Control" Aquaculture 67:236-237.
  • Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update" Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 1:217-238, 1997.
  • Röllinghoff, M., Bogdan, C., Gessner, A. and Lohoff, M. 2001. Immunity to Protozoa. eLS.P.J. Burgess & R.A. Matthews. Cryptocaryon irritans(Ciliophora): acquired protective immunity in the thick-lipped mullet,Chelon labrosus. Fish & Shellfish Immunology Volume 5, Issue 6, August 1995, Pages 459–468
  • Y. W. LI, X. M. DAN, T. W. ZHANG, X. C. LUO &A.X.LI. 2011. Immune-related genes expression profile in orange-spotted grouper during exposure to Cryptocaryon irritans. Parasite Immunology, 2011, 33, 679–6
  • Ichiro Misumi. 2009. The ciliated protozoan parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans, and protective immunity in marine fish. Thesis/dissertation
  • VetSci. Immunity To Parasites. 2009.
  • Diggles, B.K. & Adlard, R.D. 1995. “Taxonomic Affinities of Cryptocaryon irritans and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis inferred from ribosomal RNA Sequence Data.” Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 22 (1), 39-43, 1995.
  • Diggles & Adlard, 1997. “Intraspecific variation in Cryptocaryon irritans.” Journal of Eukaryotic Microbiology, 44(1), 25-32, 1997.
  • Diggles & Lester, 1996c. “Infections of Cryptocaryon irritans on Wild Fish from Southeast Queenland, Australia.” Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 25(3), 159-167, 1996c.
  • Diggles, B.K. & Lester, J.G. 1996b. “Variation in the Development of Two Isolates of Cryptocaryon irritans.” Journal of Parasitology, 82(3), 384-388, 1996b.
  • Diggles, B.K. & Lester, J.G. 1996a. “Influence of Temperature and Host Species on the Development of Cryptocaryon irritans.” Journal of Parasitology, 82(1), 45-51, 1996a.
  • Jee, B.Y., Kim, K.H., Park, S.I. & Kim, Y.C. 2000. “A New Strain of Cryptocaryon irritans from the Cultured Olive Flounder Paralichthys olivaceus.” Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 43, 211-215, 2000.
 
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Scientist

New Member
A great summary of the topic, thank you.

Here are my two cents: Since the application of a vaccine is not possible at this point, management of the infection could potentially lead to self immunization. This model has been shown to work with some types of venom, weaken pathogens, and most well known - children's diseases (which is why we call them 'children diseases' - as once you have them once you acquired immunity).

As I mentioned, there is anecdotal evidence that this is indeed what happens in our tanks.

Let me reiterate, because I believe it is of everyone's interest to stay clear on this point: A hospital tank and a proper (copper/hypo) treatment is the only know way to eradicate Ich.

Yet, many hobbyist find this to be impractical (for various reasons, including lack of experience / poor management of the hospital tank). I thus suggest that doing nothing is not a suitable alternative, and propose an approach that can ultimately lead to successful management of the infection.
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Once a fish has survived and gotten rid of ich, they have an immunity to it thereafter? Or can they get it again?

Immunity doesn't mean that the fish doesn't have ich. It means that the fish has been able to survive with the ich parasite living off of it (and reproducing small numbers of parasites undetected by you). Any stress or new fish added to the system risks a large breakout.

Is there more than one strain?

Based off of recent published research, there may be several strains. See some of the references that I posted.

How long can ich stay in a tank without a host before it is gone completely? Could this information lead to newer and better CURES for ich?

Knowing the life cycle of the parasite you are dealing with is absolutely needed to determine how and what to medicate to treat it. Yes, marine ich can stay in the tank without fish hosts in the tank, this is b/c of its life cycle, which consists of:
  • The trophont is the "feeding stage," during which the parasite is found embedded within the tissues of the fish. The trophont is the only feeding stage.
  • After the trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont before encysting and transforming into a tomont, or "reproductive stage." The tomont develops and divides into numerous tomites, which eventually leave the cyst as theronts. Ultimately hundreds of microscopic mobile tomites burst from the cyst, even as many as 2000.
  • Theronts actively seek fish hosts. This is the free-swimming infective stage.

An average life cycle appears to be 1 to 2 weeks; however, life cycle durations may range from 6 days to 11 weeks, primarily because of the unpredictability of tomont development.

If everyone does the same thing, then how will we ever advance the hobby to better ideas?

You don't have to worry about this too much b/c one of the main drivers for research into marine ich: determining the various strains; immunity; treatments; vaccines; etc. - is industry. There is a very large economically prosperous industry that has to deal with marine ich outbreaks (aquaculture) and loosing profits is not something they want. Therefore, advances will be made and those advances will eventually trickle down to hobbyist.
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Here are my two cents: Since the application of a vaccine is not possible at this point, management of the infection could potentially lead to self immunization. This model has been shown to work with some types of venom, weaken pathogens, and most well known - children's diseases (which is why we call them 'children diseases' - as once you have them once you acquired immunity).

One factor that has to be taken into account, is the small closed systems that are harboring C. irritans - Our tanks. These are not large aquaculture facilities or the open ocean. There are a very few fish to host many (sometimes thousands) of microscopic mobile tomites looking for a place to land. I would think that this increases the risks and complicates the potential for self immunization.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
Nice to meet you Scientist. I like your post and agree with most of it. I will say that the vast majority of hobbiests on here, and any forum will not agree with you or anything that try's to suggest that ich, or any disease can be prevented in a tank. That is "most" people but not me. I can say that because I have kept my fish disease free for about 35 years and I do not have to quarantine. That causes the hairs to stand up on the neck of many people so I try to limit talking about those ideas here. (or anywhere) I don't think a lot of people are ready to accept the fact that fish can be fully immune from these things as my fish are. So far the only "scientific" explanation for my tank is that I am "lucky". My fish are immune and that makes me and my fish very happy. I am not sure about the treatment you proposed but I can't pass judgement on it because I have never heard of it. But I definitely "won't" say, "NO" it definitely can't work. That would be silly and close minded as I have never tried it and if I said that, it would be heresy.
I like new thinking but have to hold my tongue quite a lot because I don't like to argue (not that anyone on this site would argue with you as we are a very polite bunch) :rolleyes:
I recently posted this thread on here about immunity http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.95269/ And I just came out with a book where I felt more free to put down my ideas without any controversy. But I like where you are going with this and I would like to know more about it as I consider myself to have an open mind, if not a little nuts. :eek:
 
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