Thinking Outside the Box

Paul B

Well-Known Member
Thinking outside the box


Unfortunately there is this box. It is very comfortable and warm inside the box which is why almost everyone wants to stay and think inside the box. People inside the box all have much of the same ideas and ways of thinking and oddly enough many of the same problems that don't get resolved using the same methods that people inside the box have been using since the salt water hobby started in the United States in 1971. I think it was on a Tuesday about 2 or 2:30 in the afternoon. Even though many of the methods don't work, people still use those methods because the sides of the box are very hard so the information gets echoed all over the box and we hear the same wrong information over and over again. We can't help but to use those methods because that is whats inside that box. The box also gets a daily influx of Noobs and many times Noobs will try something and it will work. Of course they don't know that that thing has been done forty seven thousand times. Then that information bounces around the box and everyone in the box hears it and thinks that is the way to do that particular thing. So it is done over and over again and even though it worked once, and never works again, it is still done because eventually that Noob gets out of the hobby and goes on one of those "Getting out of the Hobby, everything for sale " threads, but his Ideas keep getting re-circulated. He goes on to colect stamps and becomes an accountant at Burger King where he becomes a manager of the French Fry cooker.

Many years ago there was no box. All we had was wide open spaces, Elvis, Marylin Monroe, bellbottoms and a lot of sky. There were also no methods so we had to find our own ways to do things. We had to experiment and in doing so we killed more fish than StarKist Tuna. There was only one salt water hobbiest per state and there was no internet and we didn't know each other so everyone was a researcher. When we bought a fish,no one knew anything about that fish except the fish itself and Jacues Cousteau and he wasn't talking. So if our tank got overcome with hair algae, we learned on our own how to deal with it. We grew enough algae to cover a 19 hole golf course, but eventually we overcame and eliminated the algae. Of course if we were inside the box we would learn that changing the water will help with that. But we, outside the box realize that never works so we didn't do that.

When our fish got parasites we quickly learned how to deal with that also. Again, if we were inside the box we would change the water , with the same result.

If a fish died, we learned through trial and error how to correct that situation. No, we didn't change the water or check our parameters. We had no test kits anyway so we had to rely on our common sense which worked out pretty well.

We also learned, on our own how to feed fish so they would never get sick. We found out that our fish were supposed to spawn all the time and if they didn't, they were not healthy and prone to diseases. We could have changed the water but knew that in the future there would be this box where everyone changed water all the time but still had numerous problems.

We never had a new fish that wouldn't eat because our tanks were natural and healthy, not sterile like a newly shampooed rug like many of the tanks inside the box.

Sometimes, after a while someone climbs outside of the box and in doing so trys to go against the fine folks inside the box. The people inside the box make fun of that person and say his (or her) Ideas can't work because it is just not done that way. If say that person uses a reverse undergravel filter, the laughter from inside the box will rise to a roar. If that person goes against biblical box knowledge and finds a way to keep fish healthy without quarantining, that roar will become a typhoon and the box will shake.

The box people will never accept those outside the box ideas because it is just not taught inside the box. Even if those outside of the box ideas are proven, they will never be taken seriousely, and more importantly if any of those ideas and methods are very cheap and easy to implement, forget about it, that person may as well take up collecting old shoes because he will be driven out of the fish hobby.

Now everyone knows there are some really nice tanks inside the box. Some tanks, everyone are jealous of so going outside the box is not for everyone. But history proves that all of the new, important, earth shattering or Awe inspiring events that happened were the result of thinking outside the box because if everyone always thought inside the box there would never be any improvement because the box doesn’t allow for it. Most Neanderthals thought inside the box which is the reason they walked around for thousands of years carrying sticks and little else. It took an outside the box thinker to invent a microwave so Neanderthals could throw away that stick and heat up a TV dinner. Eventually Neanderthals got taken over by Liberals who invented that box. :eek:
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
As usual, this is another fun to read post. I agree that many things we do in SW systems today were the result of someone doing something different from what was generally being done at the time. Over a period of time methods were found that improved the results for what we were trying to keep in the tank.

At the same time there were out of the box methods that were tried that resulted in tanks of very dead livestock.

This sort of thing goes on even today. There is always some new fad going through the hobby, and it's going to solve all your problems, and make it very easy to maintain your tank. Most of these fads work out to be not much better than what has gone before, so they get dropped.

Here are a few examples of fads in the hobby. Some evolved into other methods. Other were dropped. Others go in and out of fashion.

Using a plenum under the sandbed, not used very often today
Using bioballs or similar media in a trickle filter, not used very often today
Using an algae filter, not used in the original form at all, some use algae scrubbing
Using ozone, goes in and out of fashion
Using air driven filters, just about obsolete, except for sponge filters

We could go on and on.

I would say what turns a fad in to generally accepted practice is that it actually works and makes a major improvement, and that it is repeatable by others giving similar results.

As for reverse flow undergravel filters, we all know you use them and get great results. This is something that works for you. There have also been plenty of other people that used reverse flow undergravel filters at one time or another, and then switched to other methods that they felt worked a lot better.

There are a lot of reef systems today that have been set up many years and are giving excellent results. You see a lot of different methods used. Obviously all of the methods work.

The bottom line. Should we laugh at you for using reverse flow undergravel filters? No, because your results speak for you. Should we recommend others use reverse flow undergravel filters? No, because your one of the few people using them and getting results, and because other people tried them and found they got better results using other methods.

Similar thing applies to not quarantining fish. This method works for you, and you have had great results. Others have tried this and wiped out their entire tank. I know my own tank doesn't have disease issues, even so, I think I'm better off quarantining new fish. It's far better to catch a disease problem there than it is in the main system.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
Dave, thanks for responding. The problem with knowledge is that there are two kinds of knowledge. The stuff that is true, and the stuff that we think is true because we heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from the guy who sweeps the floor at the LFS around the corner from the Liquor store.
The vast amount of knowledge, especially on the internet where anyone can post is unfortunately not true and many times harmful.
I can, and have posted many times that I have an undergravel filter. Invariably there will be numerous responses that it can not work and is a nitrate factory. These responses are almost 100% by people who never ran one the way I propose to run one, but it is rehashed information from rumors. It is true that a regular undergravel filter will crash your tank, that is a fact as I have done it a few times. :eek:
I will say I never quarantine and I will get numerous responses that will say I am playing Russian Roulette even though I never have a sick fish and some of them are on Social Security.
People read and understand what they want to understand and don't delve into the possibility that they may be incorrect. That thinking comes from thinking inside the box.
People hear "don't quarantine" and think that means just to throw any fish into any tank and it will be fine. That is far from the truth because there are things that have to happen first. Of course bacteria and parasites will kill your fish. They will kill us also but we normally use our immune system to protect us, but we don't allow the immune system of fish to do it's work. Instead we destroy the fishes immune system by subjecting it to 72 days of isolation and sterilization. Our fish are living in a bubble, a bubble that is un natural and harmful, hence all the disease threads. (Just my opinion of course as I am not the God of fish) :rolleyes: Many of us refuse to learn how to let that happen but instead post things like I am fighting ich, fighting, velvet, fighting fin rot, fighting pop eye etc.
These are the same things people have been posting about when the hobby was in it's infancy. I think it is even more so now even with all the knowledge we have. There is no reason any fish should get sick.
I will say that the bacteria and parasites in food are important to maintain the health and immunity of fish and I will get stoned, even though there are other things at play here that can and will allow fish to become immune from almost anything. People hear parasites and freak out. They refuse to learn the things that go along with it and just think of sick fish.
It's all because of the box.
This hobby is not hard, but many people make it hard, hard and expensive. :eek:
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
... The problem with knowledge is that there are two kinds of knowledge. The stuff that is true, and the stuff that we think is true because we heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from the guy who sweeps the floor at the LFS around the corner from the Liquor store.
The vast amount of knowledge, especially on the internet where anyone can post is unfortunately not true and many times harmful.
...
This hobby is not hard, but many people make it hard, hard and expensive. :eek:

That really sums things up. There is a tremendous amount of incorrect information out there. I always see bad advice out there. Some of the worst is when it comes to things that can hurt or even kill a person.

Case in point. I have seen posts by several "reef system experts" about using ozone in aquarium systems, and then telling people it's safe. Yet if you check the CDC workplace guidelines the exposure limit is only 0.1 ppm, which is a level most aquarium grade ozone units can easily create. See this reference (offsite) - http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0476.html

As for you getting blasted because you use reverse flow under gravel filters, I'm sure yhour right there. Most of the people blasting you have obviously never used this system. I've mentioned this to Paul before, but for everyone else, I did run my reef using reverse flow undergravel filters for several years. Because of this I can tell you they do work. Where I differ with Paul is that I think the newer methods can give better results.

I don't think the hobby is hard, but there are some pitfalls people new to the hobby should be aware of. People coming to reef system from the FW hobby do have to realize that it requires a little bit different mindset for keeping a SW reef.

For example, in my FW planted tank, I need to add phosphates and nitrates to the system to get good plant growth, and canister filters are the filter of choice, because the nitrates they can produce are good for the plants. On my reef system, about the last thing I would want to do is add nitrates and phosphates and wouldn't consider a canister filter at all.
 
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Paul B

Well-Known Member
Dave, a little bit of good information is much better than an enormous amount of mixed information where some of it is true. :baghead:
I refrain from going on so many threads any more because first of all I have heard it so many times and second of all I know, without a doubt there will be arguments, so why bother. I hate ground probe and GFCI threads because I was a Master electrician for 40 years and feel I know about these things because I was there when they invented them and was even sent to school by Leviton to learn about GFCIs when they came out. I also installed many fountains, tanks and ponds in Manhattan which needed GFCIs and ground probes. But then a 16 year old will come up with things like it gives the fish HLLE, adenoid infections or a social disease. It just isn't worth it to join those types of threads. Ich threads I try to stay away from because first of all it can be cured in a day. But most of all there is no reason why any fish should get it. I am tired of wasting time trying to convey theories when so many people with so little, or no experience just quote rumor, suppositions, hunches, or something they googled last Tuesday while they were searching for the meaning of a line in a Justin Bieber lyric. :eek:
That's why that box is so big. :outtahere:
 
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