Starting a display refugium

[Susanedw]

Decided it’s time to do a refugium. Reasons: Help control nitrates, pod population, possible other critters that I can’t use in dt like sea horses, have a nice planted aquarium with some rock. Much of what I find out on the net is for sump refugiums.

I picked up a 29 gal complete aquarium kit for my display refugium. Assuming I can still run my refuge on opposite light cycle even if there is light in the room from lights and the display tank? Not all that sure of what will go in there but might put a few things that I can’t put in main display. As I can’t put it below (too big), I decided to do a display refugium. Will have to decide if it runs opposite dt or not

My DT tank is a RSM c250 66 gal, so I think a 29 gal will be a good addition, and large enough (more than 50% of water volume which I estimate at 46 gal) to be useful.

I’m assuming I do not need the bio wheel filter. It has LED lights and moonlights and heater, which I also won’t need but nice to have a backup.

The stand I ordered will hold 2 tanks of that size so the smaller quarantine (when I get it) will go on bottom.

It won’t stand tall enough to be able to use gravity to feed back to display which I’d hoped for to protect pods. So I’ll have to get a pump to use for the return

Here are my questions.

-Best way to get water from display sump (built into back of dt) to the refug

--pull water from sump or pull from display. Read elsewhere to use water from display as sump water not as good

-Do I need an over flow box to take water from sump to the refuge and if so, what kind. Do not want to risk flooding so this is a biggie if you all have suggestions

-how do I deal with syphons not breaking or breaking—which end needs to break in case of a power failure. Do not want any chance of flooding.

-Should I when I get one hook up a chiller from this end or keep it separate and use my other return for it.

-PVC pipe or flexible tubing? Stand will be on wall facing tank by the corner. Tank is just under 3 feet from corner, so new stand will be right at the corner. So less than 3 feet separate. Looks are important to me. Whatever I use, I might paint it same color as wall and fasten to the wall with brackets.

-Do I need a separate area for water to come in and go thru filter or just dump into display

-Should I separate a part for an internal return pump or use an external. Might want as much of that tank for the algae and whatever. I don’t need a sump. Just the refugium.

-I might have a bag of caribsea sand. It was live but the dog chewed holes in it so lost much of the water. Assuming it can still be used, just not live anymore.

-have some dry rock left so will put in a piece or two. Esp. the pukani left.

Okay, this is it for now. Probably more I haven't thought of. Stand comes tomorrow, so eager to begin

 

[Susanedw]

Okay, clarifing a bit here.

Okay, here is what I have so far. No diagrams but pics. This first pic is the front view of my sump as though the tank wasn't there and the glass is black of course. My thoughts to add a overflow box from sump to refuge will not work. First, there is no place to put it and no room or access to add. (There are glass baffles separating each chamber. Above #6, that black plastic with the hole in it for cords allows no access from outside to that chamber above foam block, and the side of #10 is too narrow.) On top of that, the sump is a good 3 + inches lower to allow for flood control, and the overflow boxes aren't deep enough to reach to water level.
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That means no gravity feed to refuguim as I'd want a cs overflow box. So I guess I need to use the chiller accessory (#10) to go to the refugium. I don't have a chiller yet. There are 2 ways I think I can do this.
#1 use a separate pump as shown (#11). when I add a chiller, change plumbing to go to chiller than to refugium and back to tank however
#2 Use the return pump (#7) to go to the refugium, and then a pump to go back to that return, reserving the chiller area for a chiller later.

To return to main display: Pump from refuge directly into the main tank with a pipe or tube that drops down, releasing water lower into tank (for any pods that make it through and to keep pumps and foam blocks from being clogged with stuff from refuge. I'd use some kind of nozzle/spray bar to keep flow from disrupting sand bed). See some questions return water to main tank below.

Next pictures after this one of my sump are of my tank setups.
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View attachment 495196View attachment 495197

Okay, the dt is approx 37" long.
From end of tank to Wall approx 34"
From end of tank to front of refugium 20"
From floor to top of refuge: 50"
Main tank just under 60" with top of sump 4 inches lower

Plumbing outlet would run from the side with the red sea logo to the refuge and back again. Below the refuge will be the quarentine tank. Right now I have a 10 not set up and may upgrade to a 20. It would be separate plumbed of course.

So my choices at this point to get water back to main tank: if there are more choices):
#1 Use internal pump to go back to dt (and make sure nothing gets sucked in (much like I pump water into main tank with water changes
--This method means I need either an overflow box inside one corner or a weir/baffle separating the main refuge from submersible pump or use a hang on back box
--Read that you shouldn't have 2 pumps for a refugium--pump either to or from but not both and use gravity for the other. I can't see how I can use gravity
#2 Use an external pump to somehow pump to the back of main tank, either into the sump or into the tank itself
--Can't really find any external water pumps or see how to do this. Seems like I'd have to drain into a small canister filter that will pump water back to main display. If I did this, I'd use rubble inside only to protect pods. I don't need a large one--just need to to the 3 feet to the main tank and the lift is less than 10 inches or so

Advantage of external pump or canister is it will keep heat out of that small tank. Esp. with no chiller yet. I will add a fan to the display and another one to the main to put off the chiller as long as possible.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049RNVXI/?tag=reefsanc-20

So pros and cons?
Suggested products?
Does any of this make sense? any help or suggests welcome and will clarify if I'm not clear here. It's a lot to think about and try to put into words <g>

 

[Susanedw]

Actually, a canister filter wouldn't need an overflow box I don't think. It would pull water down.

 

[DaveK]

Traditionally when you install a refugium, you plumb it's water source off the main return pump in the sump. You want to use fairly clean water going into the refugium. This prevents it from becoming a dirt trap. The refugium is also fitted with an overflow of one type or another, similar to what is on the display tank, and the water is returned to the sump.

With an all in one tank like the RSM 250, the traditional way usually very tricky to install. There isn't a large sump under the tank, and everything is fitted into the filtration unit on the back of the tank.

You really can't get around using an overflow to either supply the refugium or to return water to the main tank or filtration unit. Your going to need an overflow at one point or another.

It's just about impossible to use two pumps, one supply and one return, and keep them in sync so there is not a flood.

I see a few possible solutions.

You could build your own stand, making it tall so the refugium is somewhat above the RSM 250. Then plumb the overflow on the refugium to drain back to the display tank or it's filtration system. Supply the refugium by using a powerhead pump in the main tank or it's filtration system.

Another way is to put the 29 gal tank lower than the display tank and construct it as a sump and refugium. Use an overflow on the display tank to feed it, and a return pump in the refugium to return the water.

I would consider the first option is a lot less prone to floods, because if the pump fails, no additional water is supplied to the refugium.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Might look at this... if interested - many say Jeff makes "the best..." he has custom ones he designed for the RSM 250 Jeff touts... NOT A SINGLE SIPHON LOSS IN 26 YEARS

http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html

whole sumps and refugium too

 

[Susanedw]

@DaveK Thanks for the response. The top of the refuge tank is about an inch and a half lower than the level in the sump (the mark RS recommends we keep the sump level which is approx 3 inches lower than top of sump). Figuring the water will be about 4 inches from top of refuge means I need to raise the tank about 5-6 inches or so. Maybe I can put concrete blocks on top of stand to raise it slightly above sump level (level is 3 inches below top of sump). I ordered the foam leveling material which would hid the plywood I'll also put down.

I'd have to add another pump into the chiller chamber and share that pump with the chiller eventually (water to chiller then refuge or tee it so it goes to both as refuge needs roughly 30 gal per hour flow rate?). If I use gravity feed back to tank, I can't use the return pump to the refuge as the water won't work to come back to that return into the tank as I don't think the flow from gravity fed wouldn't be enough.

So if the water is gravity feed from refuge to main, I can use a cs overflow box and go directly into the main tank and not the sump to preserve my pod life. I will see if I can raise that tank.

@nanoreefing4fun I saw that site. I have 4.5 inches from tank to wall which doesn't allow much work room. I'd really have to go slim. Looks like the pic you posted is where the cooling fans are and until I get a chiller, I desperately need those. I'll ck out his offerings.

What kind of paint do I use if I paint the back wall of the tank (or could use black background from petsmart.)

 

[Susanedw]

okay, another question to be sure I understand flood control.

If I'm pumping from sump to refuge, I'm assuming I'll need a valve to regulate the flow into the refuge. And going back, the flow is regulated by gravity so there is no pump to fail. It means fine tuning the flow into the refuge, right?

But if the overflow in the refuge fails, what's to prevent the main tank's sump from emptying into refuge? Yes, water will only drain into the sump until level drops below baffle teeth but the sump is about 10 gal, less because it is kept at a lower level but that's a lot of water to go to the refugium. I'd have to only fill the refuge to that amt to allow water to drain.

Gravity from main to refuge would be limited by overflow so only a couple gals most likely, and the return pump if inside the refuge would be controlled by water going into the internal overflow .

Seems like the safest way to go is gravity to refuge and pump back to main.

otherwise, what is the safeguard to go from pump in main tank to refuge with gravity return

 

[Susanedw]

ps my brain is being several taxed by all this, and after just cleaning a flood in my kitchen from forgetting to shut off the RO unit hooked up outside, I do not want to deal with that issue (making hubby get my ro unit so I can hook to kitchen sink this weekend....)

 

[cracker]

Don't feel bad about the flood, Everybody has done the same !

 

[Susanedw]

lol's @cracker I got clean kitchen floors out of it, even if it took me 2 days to wash the towels and floor rugs....

 

[Susanedw]

I think I found a solution to using my pump and avoiding any flooding using this float valve kit http://www.aquahub.com/store/product67.html
any opions? This way, if the water level drops in the sump, it shuts just that return pump off. When I feed and do wc's it should be okay if the water level rises to the high point but it shouldn't ever drop below the set low point.

Opinions?

 

[Susanedw]

here is my diagram of my plumbing and set up. it is NOT to scale and the front of tank is like looking into sump (pretend tank not there. Did not put in all the sump chambers.