Some help from experienced aquarists..

[grmpygeek]

Hi All,

I'm fairly new to this game - I've had my tank now for around 3 months. I bought it all new, let it cycle for around 5 weeks and started adding fish (after testing water and LFS giving thumbs up).

My tank is a 55 gallon, and I had the following:
* 2 small percula clownfish
* regal tang (small - around 3")
* yellowtail damsel (2")
* Trochus snail

I have 20kg's of live rock with various critters (brittle stars, some filter feeders and whatnot).

Recently my Regal got white spot. I didn't know about the quarantine tank so set one up immediately and decided to treat my main tank with vertinex in the meantime (I didn't want him to die while the hospital tank was cycling). I added the recommended dose daily over 4 days.

He started looking much better - but it was then I noticed my black percula had some nips on his fins. I watched the tank religiously and caught the regal pecking at him. I did a massive water change in the hospital tank, and added the clowny in there (after acclimatisation etc). He deteriorated very quickly and died the next day.

Then my other clownfish who had looked perfect started swimming in a strange way - he was also dead by the next morning.

I went to the LFS after testing all water parameters - here's what they were:
* Ammonia - 0
* Nitrite - 0
* Nitrate - approx 5ppm
* pH - 7.6
* Salinity - 1.023

The LFS said my kH was also very low (around 160ppm). I have been doing 15% water changes weekly with water from the LFS, checked and matched for salinity. I thought that was supposed to restore the water's natural buffers.

The LFS said it was likely that the low pH was responsible for the deaths of my two clownfish. I immediately did a big (40%) water change, in case the medication was effecting things) - the LFS also sold me some Seachem "Reef Carbonate" which I've been adding in small quantities daily (and checking my pH). The pH does seem to be coming up - but it's very slow to do so, and I'm worried about overdosing with carbonates. Am I doing the right thing? Is simply adding chemicals the best way to solve this?

Other information about my tank:
* Aqua One Cannister filter (Rated for 200 gal tank)
* Jebo skimmer
* No carbon - i'm using only filter pads and crushed coral as the cannister medium.
* Substrate is 4" at the front tapering to nothing at the back. I wanted to put the rocks on the bare glass so I wouldn't have any issues with fish waste.

My weekly clean involves vacuuming the substrate and picking any fish waste from around the back of the rocks.

I feed my fish a combination of spirulina flakes, mysis shrimp and hikari marine "s" pellets. I also leave out some dried fortified nori for my tang.

I hope thats enough information for people to use to help - I'm at my wits end. I thought I was doing everything right and my fish just seem to be dying and I don't know why.

My damsel is looking fine, but my regal tang has spent most of the day hiding in the rocks (which is unlike it), and I'm worried he's not doing so well.

Thanks for sticking with this enormously long post!

Pete

 

[Eric]

I would say the Ph is your problem as well but uncertain of why it is so low.

The thing that stands out to me is you get your water from the LFS, have you tested that?

Also what brand of salt are you using?

Another thing is do you have your own test kits in case the LFS is wrong, not saying they are but it never hurts to double check.

Maybe someone else can offer a better explanation.

 

[Eric]

One more question, do you have any fake ornaments made of plastic resin or other materials in the tank?

 

[grmpygeek]

Thanks for your reply. I buy seawater from the LFS - I don't mix it myself. I test it for salinity only to make sure it's balanced before putting it in my tank. They also sell RO water which I buy too to reduce the salinity of their water. Theirs is normally around 1.027 so I bring it down with the RO. Normally I use around 20L of their seawater and about 5L of the RO water. I've never tested their water for pH - I will give this a go, but more than likely it won't be the reason if they are selling it to everyone like that and using it for their own tanks.

Also no plastic ornaments. Just the substrate and LR (20kg's). I wanted to get coral when the fish had settled in but I keep hitting hurdles!

 

[Eric]

I would test their water RO and Pre mixed, I am assuming you are using a hydrometer to check salinity, could it be possible your hydrometer is wrong and when you dilute the sea water you are going to low and lowering the ph at the same time?

I am just taking pot shots to see if we can hit something

 

[grmpygeek]

Yes thats possible - although I am matching the salinity of the added water to my tanks water, and when the LFS measured it with their refractometer - they said it was 1.023 which is pretty much perfect.

Do you - or anyone else, know about my other question? About adding carbonate to remedy the problem? Is this the right way to go? Should I just keep adding bit by bit until my pH is ok or do I risk some other issue by doing this?

Thanks

 

[Eric]

I would keep adding it to bring the PH up but you need to find out what is causing the Ph to drop.

That's a band aid remedy and not something you want to add forever.

My .02

 

[Eric]

Being the Ph and Kh are low it leads me to believe it maybe the salt the shop is using to make their water. That just doesn't sound right to me, I hope one of the more advanced member can step in and lend their thoughts.

I would get test kits asap, if it's not their water that is messed up, something is wrong in your tank and needs to be corrected.

Eric

 

[WVUReefer]

I'm gonna take a stab and give Dr. Eric a break. First lowering the salinity in the tank would not harm the fish, if it was done slowly, so I seriously doubt that is the issue. I've acclimated powder browns to 1.009 salinity in QT over the span of an hour and they survived for months in QT at that salinity. Clowns are definitaly a hardier fish. Also, if the salinity in your tank was low (due to a faulty hydrometer) your inverts would not have survived. they are more dependent on salinity requirements than fish. The low PH is a problem. Adding supplements to get PH and DKH should not hurt. I've raised low PH and DKH within a week...adding the mixture recommended every day until satisfied. If I had to guess sounds like possibly the LFS might be selling tap water as RO water. Tap contains nitrates, phosphate, and depending on your location acidic or alkiline levels. All with contribute to "phantom nitrates", PO and tap quality can play havoc with PH and DKH. The chaotic test readings sounds like what happens in my tank when I get snowed in and desperate for top off water, thus resorting to using tap.

 

[WVUReefer]

It just seems to me that the common denominator in this equation is the water used is coming from the LFS. I would bet my money its the quality of their water. The original problem was disease. You treated the disease and then began frequently using their water. The water chemistry in your tank went wacky. Too many coincidences. All fingers point to the water, which your getting from your LFS.

 

[WVUReefer]

I feel like Grissom on CSI..heheheheee...Make sure the LFS isn't selling tap under the auspice of RO/DI...or you could try buying bottled R/O from the store and mixing it yourself...if this remedies the issue than you know who to trust...Personally I like my water like I like my Chinese food..I want to know whats going into the bucket...see it with my own eyes..

 

[Eric]

Dr Eric lol yeah in my parents dreams maybe

When I mentioned salinity I didn't mean that being on the low side was killing the fish, I was thinking when he is diluting the salinity "example" say to 1.009 in the same turn lowering the Ph to 7.6,

Of course it wouldn't be the first pet shop was selling tap water as Ro or not replacing the filters seen that before, that could cause problems and you can't really test for a lot of the things that can reak havoc on your tank in tap water.

WVR is on to something, I'll think twice before telling a WV joke next time jk I am going to tell the joke

 

[grmpygeek]

Ok - well I'll test their RO and Saltwater (which they say is ocean water), next time I get some. I'll expect the RO to have 1.000 SG and pH of 7.0. I'll check the ocean water as well.

My tank was originally set up and cycled with their water - both their RO and Seawater. I'm not doing anything differently now.

The following organisms survived the cycling (including an initial salinity of 1.018)
* Scutus snail
* 2 crabs (unknown type, probably xanthid) - which I removed
* multiple filter feeders and brittle stars
* a sea urchin

So my point - if the water has been bad all along then wouldn't these things have died (possibly even before the fish?)

Anyway - I will do as you say and test the LFS water and keep you posted with updates. My tang and damsel are still ok for now.

Thanks

 

[WVUReefer]

Here's what I would try...just got to the supermarket, get some bottled R/O and mix...see if this helps...cause if it is the LFS water you just bought...than you can't use it and you'll have to buy fresh again...this would save one trip and twice the wallet...

 

[WVUReefer]

(WARNING BRIEF THREAD HIJACK)
Eric, are you and I like the only 2 on this site who don't sleep at night?

 

[Eric]

Lol is true.

 

[Eric]

I agree with WVR get water from market and mix your own, see if that fixes the problem.

Welcome to Rs

 

[BigAl07]

Ok I'm gonna toss some information in here just for fun.

• A) Tank is too small for the tang alone before anything else is added.
  
• B) Be careful when stocking... you added 3 fish that all have potential for aggression towards each other (Clowns and Damsel which clowns are damsel fish)
  
• C) IMHO 1.023 is getting kind of low on the SG scale. Not critical but little to no room for error. Just my 2 cents on that one
  
• D) You're a little low on the Live Rock (depending on how porous your rock is). A General rule of thumb would be 1lb - 1 1/2lb per gallon of water capacity.
  
• E) If you're planning to "Go Reef" you want to ween your system of the canister filter YESTERDAY. Canister isn't the bed idea for a Reef system. Your live rock and live sand will be your biological filtration system.
  
• F) I'd do some HEAVY water changes, add carbon, and probably some type of filter pads to get some potentially hidden elements out of the tank water.
  
• G) As already suggested test the source water and salt mix.

 

[r2d2]

I know its already been said but you have to get your own test kit and mix your own salt water. Thats the only way to start having control over those variables.
Another very good investment is a refractometer, very accurate and easier to use than a hydrometer.

Greetings

 

[grmpygeek]

Thanks everyone so much for your help. Unfortunately I guess a lot of us get into this based only on the advice of places like our local LFS and don't end up learning about everything you actually need to do until later... I assumed the LFS water would be even better than any water I'd mix myself.

For now - I'll do another big water change today, and introduce some carbon into the cannister to try and remove anything which might be annoying the fish.

Big Al - you said a cannister was a bad idea for a reef tank? Why is this? I thought it added to the total mass of biological filtration? After all - It's just filled with crushed coral, so why is that bad?

So whats the best way to test if water is RO or not? I can test for Ammonia, Nitr(ate/ite), pH, calcium and salinity. I do need a refractometer though cause I just have a swing arm one. What else should I be testing for? (My LFS said the tests I'm doing are fine, but since then I've learned about kH, dissolved oxygen, TDS and a number of other things.. I feel a little overwhelmed ATM.