Red Sea 650 update - 'expert' advice

[Tariq]

So we have had our tank running for about 3 months now and I could not for the life of me stop other half buying fish! So we now have a bit of a nitrate spike. Ammonia and Nitrite spiked then came back down. My other half then got a chap in to look at it. He appears to know his stuff and his advice was as follow.
1. We have too little live rock. Not sure how much we bought, local shop brought it with the tank but I think it's probably about 40-50 judging by bill.
2. Extra flow needed as we have some purple algae on the sand. New pump to push water across back of tank behind rock.
3. Refuleum has wrong light. It's LED and we need a warmer light. T5 needed.
4. Stop water changes and let tank settle.
5. Keep dosing with RedSea nopox.
6. Turn of Triton dosing as corals too small.
7. Took out socks (I had forgotten about them!!)
8. Took out carbon bags and rowafos bag (nitrate factories)
9. Put in a nitrate removing sponge filter thing.

Sorry but vague.

Salinity 1.026
Ph 8.1
Alkalinity dKH 8
Nitrate 20
Nitrite 0.05
Ammonia 0.1
Phosphate 0.03

Thoughts?



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[DaveK]

What livestock do you have in the tank? This includes fish and corals.
When you post 40-50 for live rock, what is the units of measurement being used?
The light on the refugium is not a major factor. Exactly what kind of lighting do you have on the refugium? Please post manufacturer and model. You may not need to do anything.

Posting a few pictures will help with the determination of the amount of live rock you have and how things are looking with the algae issue.

On items 4 through 9 I have a lot of reservations about that advice but I want to reserve judgment until we know more.

Some other notes -

Ammonia or nitrite readings other than 0 indicate that the tank has not cycled and/or has a major problem. That's got to get fixed first.

Once that is out of the way, we'll work on nitrates and phosphates. A reading for nitrate of 20 isn't perfect, but it's not into the danger zone.

 

[Tariq]

Livestock
Achilles
Yellow
3 wrasse (1 large, two small)
5 antheas (1 large, two small and a fathead and a blotchy)
Marine betta
Dottyback

(Did have a blenny who died suddenly 5 days ago)

40-50 kg

LED light in refugeum cost about £140

Got a quote from the chap of £75 a week to manage aquarium or £100/hr for adhoc advice.



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[Tariq]

Also invertebrates
Numerous corals all sps
Zoanthids, mushroom, two large leather.

1 electric scallops
1 feather starfish
2 cleaner shrimp
Various snails and crabs


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[Joeys Tank]

As a 650 owner ...

I run with 300 lbs of live rock. You will want to get 75kg more. At this stage in the game, since you have already added live stock, I would recommend adding dry rock to the tank to increase the surface area for bacteria to grow. Place pieces a few at a time and focus with the intent of scaping your rock to create places for coral to rest and coves for fish to hide in. Dry rock because at this point, your tank is maintaining (with effort) and the bacteria will not take too long to populate. Best not to add bad hitch hikers into your system.

With my 650, moving water along the back behind the rockscape is very important. Great advice on putting a pump back there. I went with a Gyre running along the back.

Water changes will not "disturb" your tank. In fact, it is a good way to bring down your nitrate levels. The drop in nitrate levels is proportional to the amount of water you change out (e.g. 35 gallon water change should result in a 20% reduction in nitrate levels).

Great advice on dosing with NoPox-3. Not only will it bring down your nitrate to near zero, it will also help lower your phosphate levels (which you will see an increase from adding more rock).

My tank has been up and running for two years now and I still haven't made the leap to dosing. Water changes will be more than sufficient at this early stage.

The carbon bags and black sponge are great items to have in there, but you will need to rinse them out frequently (once a week). Everyone says how bad of a nitrate factory those sponges are, but that is if you never rinse them out. You will be amazed at how much undissolved organics you can rinse out of them.

Hope that helps.

 

[Squatch XXL]

The carbon bags and black sponge are great items to have in there, but you will need to rinse them out frequently (once a week).

I have been using "Cut to fit" black carbon infused pads since I restarted reefing. Cut to shape, than dispose of after a week has removed quite a bit of particles. I have not ever had an algae outbreak....but by the same token, I don't stock fish and I feed infrequently.

Filters and sponges are a form of nutrient export, and they need to be cleaned regularly to ensure that things aren't rotting in your tank.

 

[DaveK]

I generally agree with the post by @Joeys Tank.

I would especially agree with the need for additional Live rock.

You also have added way too may fish and added them way too fast. You have also added some fairly difficult species.

The tangs are ok in the tank size you have, but tangs are big dirty fish that produce a lot of waste. They are not a problem, but I wouldn't add any more.

The wrasses should be ok, as long as they don't fight each other or other fish.

That anthias may be a problem. This are fish that have very demanding feeding requirements, and need to be fed several times a day. If you can keep up with that you'll be fine.

No problems with the other fish.

The electric scallop is really difficult to keep, since it's a filter feeder. Keep an eye on it, and if it dies, remove it right away. The other inverts are ok.

Go very easy on feeding until the ammonia and nitrite problems are fixed. They should go down on their own. Until they do, do not add any more livestock of any type.

Getting back to the original questions.

Water changes can delay the tank cycle, but you also have a nitrate issue. Keep them up, but keep them modest, 10% a week or so.

I'm not a big fan of NoPox but it's not going to hurt anything. Do not overdose it. This is a case where using way too much can cause other issues.

Until your problems are resolved, do not douse using the Triton method. Once things are stable then consider using it.

The carbon and rowaphos are not a problem as long as you keep them clean, but you need not add them back, at least not yet

The nitrate removing sponge isn't going to hurt anything, but I've never found them to do any good.

Over all I think your close to resolving everything. In summary, add more rock, go light on feeding, do modest water changes and keep an eye on things. Don't try to force the issue too much and you should be fine.

 

[DaveK]

...
Got a quote from the chap of £75 a week to manage aquarium or £100/hr for adhoc advice. ...

That seems to be an outrageous rate to manage a tank or to ask advice. That's £3900 (about $5231 USD) a year to manage the tank. Unless your a movie star or a major sports figure, forget it.

You'll also get much better advice on a forum like this. One person, even if they are an expert, can only give you their opinion. Here you'll get multiple opinions from many people. It's sort of this way. If you had a very large sum to invest, you would likely consult many people on how and where to invest it.

 

[Blue Space]

If I had a rock star income I'd pay Dave so he could work full-time answering reefer's questions.

Hmmm. . . I wonder who's footing the bill now, lol!!?

 

[Tariq]

A big thank-you to all the advice especially Dave and Joey for taking the time to write such full responses full of excellent feedback.

I completely agree about cost of advice. It's a ridiculous amount.

My plan is to get some more rock (live or not TBC)
I've stopped daily w/c and may start doing small weekly.
Going to buy a powerhead looking at the fluval sea as they appear quite cost effective and fairly good spec (joey, the gyre is to create waves isn't it so I didn't think it would be a good choice? My tank is fairly full so any waves would spill?)
Completely agree about adding far too much far too quickly. I tried to keep my girlfriend in check but there was no stopping her. The tanks is actually hers to be fair.
On the filter feeders I get a subscription from reefphyto who send me a phytoplankton and zooplankton (rotifiers , coperpods) that I feed them with. It's a very good service, especially the subscription.

To be honest I completely forgot about rinsing carbon and rowaphos bags or even the filter socks! Bit of a newbie mistake.

Other things I'm looking at is changing mr refugium light to something with warmer light.

Also how does everyone clean our detritus from bottom of sump and behind the weir? I was thinking of buying the Ehiem electric vacuum thingy (Quck Vac) gets pretty good reviews.

Any one else have a different solution?


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[SPR]

Also how does everyone clean our detritus from bottom of sump and behind the weir? I was thinking of buying the Ehiem electric vacuum thingy (Quck Vac) gets pretty good reviews.

I have had the same dilemma with this but I found that when I do a water change I turn the main pump off, the water fills the sump and what I then do is mix up the water in the left hand side of the sump and that's stirs all the sand etc up into the water. I then take around 55-60 litres out which nearly empties the left side and takes out a lot of the debris as well

I do a similar thing on the right hand side were the main pump is and take the water with a small cup as not as much room

I've been looking at the vacuum but not sure they will do what I want (remove sand etc) so let me know if you get one. I have been thinking on that idea for ages.

PS. On the activated carbon I'm not sure if you are supposed to rinse it once it's been used? You rinse before use is RO water and leave to soak but as far as I know you throw them away after 4-6 weeks depending on loads. Open to enlightenment on this ?

 

[Tariq]

Water Changes
Thanks for that, sounds like a good process. I've been trying a few water change routines, sometimes from the the top of the tank siphoning out and in and sometimes siphoning back into the sump. How do you get the water out of the sump though? I haven't done that. Isn't too low to siphon out?

Ehiem QuickVac
I think I will buy one, I'm sure it will do the job and I can't think of anything better for behind the weir. Does anyone clean behind weir?

Active carbon
That is what I understood as well, rinse in RO, however I did leave the bags in a bit long (probably 10 weeks). In my defence the load was quite low to begin with. But when I took them out (as part of the expert visit) they were smelly.

 

[Tariq]

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[Tariq]

Here are some photos of tank

Not very well taken!



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[SPR]

Water Changes
Thanks for that, sounds like a good process. I've been trying a few water change routines, sometimes from the the top of the tank siphoning out and in and sometimes siphoning back into the sump. How do you get the water out of the sump though? I haven't done that. Isn't too low to siphon out?

Ehiem QuickVac
I think I will buy one, I'm sure it will do the job and I can't think of anything better for behind the weir. Does anyone clean behind weir?

Active carbon
That is what I understood as well, rinse in RO, however I did leave the bags in a bit long (probably 10 weeks). In my defence the load was quite low to begin with. But when I took them out (as part of the expert visit) they were smelly.

1. I change around 10% per week. I have 3 home brew buckets at 30l. One is for the waste and the other 2 are for the new saltwater which I mix for around an hour with a small pump. I have one for each bucket as got fed up with stirring. I use Red Sea Coral Pro
I turn off the main pump and skimmer and the water will then flood into the sump until the level at the top of the tank falls to the level of the weir and will the stop. Makes some alarming noises so as long as your not over filled you will be fine! I think when the tank is filled correctly to full the water in the sump should be no higher than 8-9 inches as per the instructions.

Once flooded I stir it all up to get the debris floating. The amount of water in the left hand side of the sump contains just over 60 litres in my case so what I do is I have a 5 litre plastic jug and scoop out exactly the amount of water I am going to replace which is mixing in the new saltwater buckets. I empty the waste water bucket twice. Onto my block paved drive actually as it keeps moss and anything else away!

I did the syphon from the top to start but my method only takes a few minutes and if you mix the water around it also removes much of the debris. You can also scoop some from the right side as well

Then you put the new saltwater back in to the exact amount taken out.

Once done you just turn it all back on....I don't have anything like rocks in my sumps other than 2 heaters so it's easier but I see you have a few bits and bobs

AND IF YOU DO THIS METHOD MAKE SURE YOU TURN THE HEATERS OFF IF THEY WILL BECOME UNSUBMERGED OTHERWISE THEY SMELL AND BURN QUIET WELL!! TOP TIP FROM EXPERIENCE!!

ALSO THE DRAIN HOSE FROM YOUR PROTEIN SKIMMER SEEMS TO BE GOING UP. UNLESS YOU MOVED IT FOR THE PHOTO? Needs to be going down. Mine drains into a large plastic milk carton that I balance on glass near to were carbon is placed.

2. Not cleaned behind the wier specifically although when I mix the water with a wooden spoon it moved everything around. Interested with the Vac though

3. As far as I know, and I await correction!, you rinse/soak the new carbon for a bit before putting it in tank and then you throw it away after 4-6 weeks depending etc. I don't think it should be reused because of what it collects but I'm open to enlightenment on this.

 

[Tariq]

1. I change around 10% per week. I have 3 home brew buckets at 30l. One is for the waste and the other 2 are for the new saltwater which I mix for around an hour with a small pump. I have one for each bucket as got fed up with stirring. I use Red Sea Coral Pro
I turn off the main pump and skimmer and the water will then flood into the sump until the level at the top of the tank falls to the level of the weir and will the stop. Makes some alarming noises so as long as your not over filled you will be fine! I think when the tank is filled correctly to full the water in the sump should be no higher than 8-9 inches as per the instructions.

Once flooded I stir it all up to get the debris floating. The amount of water in the left hand side of the sump contains just over 60 litres in my case so what I do is I have a 5 litre plastic jug and scoop out exactly the amount of water I am going to replace which is mixing in the new saltwater buckets. I empty the waste water bucket twice. Onto my block paved drive actually as it keeps moss and anything else away!

I did the syphon from the top to start but my method only takes a few minutes and if you mix the water around it also removes much of the debris. You can also scoop some from the right side as well

Then you put the new saltwater back in to the exact amount taken out.

Once done you just turn it all back on....I don't have anything like rocks in my sumps other than 2 heaters so it's easier but I see you have a few bits and bobs

AND IF YOU DO THIS METHOD MAKE SURE YOU TURN THE HEATERS OFF IF THEY WILL BECOME UNSUBMERGED OTHERWISE THEY SMELL AND BURN QUIET WELL!! TOP TIP FROM EXPERIENCE!!

ALSO THE DRAIN HOSE FROM YOUR PROTEIN SKIMMER SEEMS TO BE GOING UP. UNLESS YOU MOVED IT FOR THE PHOTO? Needs to be going down. Mine drains into a large plastic milk carton that I balance on glass near to were carbon is placed.

2. Not cleaned behind the wier specifically although when I mix the water with a wooden spoon it moved everything around. Interested with the Vac though

3. As far as I know, and I await correction!, you rinse/soak the new carbon for a bit before putting it in tank and then you throw it away after 4-6 weeks depending etc. I don't think it should be reused because of what it collects but I'm open to enlightenment on this.

Hi Shaun

Thanks, tried that and it worked well. It was less disruptive to the John Snow, Tyrion, Samwell etc (I should explain our fish are named after Game of Thrones). I got most of the detritus up. I may still get the vac for the weir and I'll post results.

BTW the skimmer probe you mentioned, the return pipe does go down into sock compartment (probably angle I took photo at) and the drain pipe from skimmer I keep on top until I drain it. I have a tap closing it off at the end so it doesn't just drain back into sump. Thanks for that though, much appreciated.

Cheers

Tariq


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