Recurring Cryptocaryon irritans infection during Hyposalinity Treatment

[blennielove]

Greetings,
I am not only baffled but very confused... Here is the situation:
I have had recurrent Crypt infection of my reef tank for the past THREE years. Couple things to note is that this is a 220 gallon tank and the residents are - Powder Blue Tang, Emperor Angel, amonst several other fishes that have "come and gone" but these two fish has been with me for THREE years. I have treated with hyposalinity in my DT on several occasions and believed that I had "won the battle" to have it recur in two to twelve weeks. You might think that I didn't hypo long enough! But, no...I kept them at 11ppt for 17 weeks at one time, 14 weeks twice and those are after the LAST SPOT is gone. I check my refractometer regularly with calibration solution. I use an auto top off so there are no variations in the specific gravity. I use baked baking powder to stabilize by pH. I QT ALL my new additions for at least 6 weeks prior to adding them to the display. Yet, sooner or later, my PBT will start with a couple of spots, they would stay the four days, then fall off, then return with several more.
Well, this time, the Crypt recurrend after two weeks of returning to 30ppt. I immediately started lowering the specific gravity over 5 days to reach 11ppt and it has been like this for the past four weeks and the PBT still consistently have the spots, the Emperor Angel also show some "light patches" but no "bumps" or salt granules, NONE of my other fish are showing any signs of Crypt and are with normal behaviors. It appears that the infection is not spreading or taking hold of the tank because of the lowered specific gravity, but the infection is coming from the PBT.
I am starting to wonder if the Crypt is somehow laying dormant in the PBT?!? I know that according to the life cycle of Crypt, this should not happen, not to say impossible, BUT I don't know how to explain the recurrance. I thought maybe that I miss diagnosed and asked several of my fish buddies over to take a look and they all say it's Crypt, then they comment on never seeing a "thicker" PBT. This guy has a "double chin" and is 1 1/2 inches thick in the middle and 5 inches long. I am thinking of using Chloroquine diphosphate whilst in hyposalinity as suggested by Dr. Fishman of Fishman Chemicals but am very nervous because often times the fish lives with Crypt and in Hyposalinity, but not with medication!
I am not sure which route to take now. I recently bought one 75 gallon tank, four 15 gallon tanks and was thinking of catching ALL the fish and put the Emperor in the 75, PBT in one of the 15's, the rest dispersed amonst the 15's and start raising the salinity and see what is there. Treat the PBT with copper, the Emperor with Chloroquine, observe the rest and treat as needed...I'm just not sure what to do next.
Your thoughts and experience will be most appreciated!

 

[gimmito]

Unfortunately PBT's are ich magnets. I wouldn't put the PBT in a 15 gal tank...that will really stress him out. Bob Goemens & Lance Ichinotsubo's book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" advocates the use of chloroquine phosphate for the treatment of cryptocaryon irritans. You might want to contact Dr. Brian at www.nationalfishpharmacies and consider using quinine sulfate instead (I believe it's packaged as CryptoPro).

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I've used Crypto Pro. It finally broke the cycle. Not sure if they are all gone, but I haven't seen it in a year.


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[leebca]

It still is worth considering a closer diagnosis. The problem with hyposalinity is that it affects only one sub-group of the known dozens of parasites that plague the hobbyist's marine fishes. It is such a specific treatment that other parasites can 'get by' this treatment.

You seem sure of your hypo treatment, but I don't see what might have gone wrong. For most hobbyists it is a simple cross contamination (use of equipment in the QT from an infected source) or not properly performing the treatment. I can say with confidence that hyposalinity works 100% against the true Crytocaryon irritans parasite. I would only want to be sure your refractometer is either one for salt water or for sea water. There are different kinds.

If the above checks out, it is time to switch to copper. It will be a more broad-spectrum treatment, affecting several different kinds of parasites that cause 'spots.' Easier, safer and well known above any other chemical treatment.

If you have access to a laboratory, you might want to consider having the parasite identified conclusively.

 

[blennielove]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts!
Lee, sad to say, I am no where near a laboratory, though I would love to know exactly what the parasite is. Besides it recurring, the "cycle" appears the same as Crypt. On the fish four days, fall off, more spots lasting around four days, fall off.
I am also leaning towards the Cupramine treatment as I actually had already purchased some and have the test kit at home. It is hard to see him happy and eating whilst in the hyposalinity and to risk it by putting him in Cupramine with all the potential side effects. But I guess in the long run, I have to weigh his health and life to the health and life of his tank mates. I think the reason they are not infected are because of the hypo, the parasite couldn't tolerate it once it leaves the fish.
So, some questions before I start the treatment:
1. Do I need to slowly raise salinity back up to 1.025 or 30 ppt prior to starting Cupramine?
2. Is a 24 inch long tank "too small" for the duration of the 2 week treatment?
3. Since this will be a "new" tank set up, could I do 80% water change with replacement of Cupramine daily?
4. Does Cupramine kill the parasite whilst it is in the fish or only when it leaves the fish? This question stems from the observation that my PBT seems to have an "unlimited" supply of parasite in his tissue. I am thinking that I need something that will kill the parasite whilst it is feeding on the poor fish.

 

[leebca]

Keep in mind how hyposalinity works, before you go forth wondering what may be the problem. It was well put by professors and doctors: Hypo stresses the parasite. It doesn't kill it. But like any stressor, enough of it and the organism will perish. That is how it works on Marine Ich. Copper, on the other hand, is a poison.

The downsides to Cupramine are the least among the copper meds and is something I recommend for all newly acquired Tangs of the Acanthurus sp.. To answer your questions the best I can. . .

1. It is best to work at normal salinity. Meds in general act differently at different salinity. The makers of Cupramine will swear it's okay to use it in hypo, but do not recommend it.

2. It is too small if the length is below 36". The fish should have a 36" swim length. However, I note the "2 week" comment. The fish will be treated, then the copper removed, then the fish held in quarantine for verification (at least 4 more weeks).

3. Not sure I totally understand this question. Sorry for being dense. It is best to add water already containing Cupramine when performing a water change, if this answers your question. If not, just ask again.

4. If it doesn't leave the fish, it's not Marine Ich or Marine Velvet or one from this group. Goes back to the diagnosis issue. It may seem like what you're dealing doesn't leave the fish, but that would be extremely unusual for these types of parasites. The copper kills the spots and all free-swimming forms of the parasite. Remember too that the spots are the signs of a cyst developing to leave the fish and start its off-fish cycle.

Part of the 'downside' to copper meds is that fish does absorb some of it, so in a way it may affect attached parasites. But this should be minimal and I know of no studies to show this, one way or the other.

Good luck! Ask if you have any questions.

 

[blennielove]

Thank you, Lee, for taking the time to answer my questions.
You were able to read through my cryptic question *3 and provideded me the answer, as I was questioning what to do if I can "plan" on doing water changes frequently whilst the PBT is in its teeny tiny tank for treatment - I know this fish pretty well and know that he will be very cranky in that small of a tank and thought at least if I can give him very clean water, it may help.
After reading your responses and some of the older threads on Crypt and its treatment. I am questioning my thought processes...Let us assume that it is Crypt that is in this fish, who is doing well in hyposalinity, why not then that I go ahead and keep them in hypo for six months or eight months? If I added up all the times they've been in hypo over the past three years, it would be around 14 months or longer! Hypo "stresses the parasite but does not kill it", looking at my PBT right now, he is happily swimming through the rock work, nibbling on the strange algae growing whilst tank is in hypo, having his buddy the cleaner wrasse give him a gentle message and kisses to relax him, and every once in a while, he goes and irritates the big Emperor Angel for a "honk" and a chase... The phrase, "Do no harm," came to my mind as I watched my tank and thought of everything I've learned about Crypt and about this hobby. I have reached some sort of balance here and as long as I don't see the parasite spreading to his tank mates whilst the tank is in hyposalinity, why not leave well enough alone?

 

[leebca]

The problem is: If you are experiencing that hypo isn't working when it is applied properly, then why should it work when extended? Or, another way of looking at it. . .IF it isn't Marine Ich, the longer hypo won't change anything.

Long hypo studies have not been conclusive in results. We know that a sp. gr. of about 1.014 over extended periods of time is okay, but no one is totally sure that hypo doesn't have a negative effect on the fish. We just don't know for sure.

 

[blennielove]

The problem is: If you are experiencing that hypo isn't working when it is applied properly, then why should it work when extended? Or, another way of looking at it. . .IF it isn't Marine Ich, the longer hypo won't change anything.

Long hypo studies have not been conclusive in results. We know that a sp. gr. of about 1.014 over extended periods of time is okay, but no one is totally sure that hypo doesn't have a negative effect on the fish. We just don't know for sure.

Lee, you are right! Thank you for reminding me why I spent $600 the other day getting all the extra tanks, filters, heaters...
Sometimes my mind just don't add things up right and this is a very good example! I do have a 4ft 75 gallon tank, would you recommend that I treat the 7" Emperor Angel with the 5" Powder Blue Tang together with copper reading of 0.3 - 0.5? I've read somewhere that angels are more sensitive to copper so will that level be alright? Or would you put the Emperor in the 75 gallon alone and observe for Crypt, if Crypt then treat with copper. The PBT in the 2 footer 15 gallon tank and treat with copper?

Thanks again for your patience with me and shedding light on my thinking pattern!

For anyone who is thinking of keeping tangs under a six foot tank...now this coming from someone who kept a tang in a 6 ft long tank for three years. I have to voice that for their sanity and yours, it's best to keep them in at least a 6 feet tank. They love to swim and quickly do they go from one end to the other. It is rather nerve wracking for both fish and observer to see them behaving nerotic and frantic at the ends of the tank. I've observed them in the ocean on several occasions and they need at the very least 6 ft. Just my personal experience and observation.

 

[leebca]

I split the thread. So blennielove if you want to add the info about tank length for the other thread, please do so there. I prefer to keep threads separate.

You're welcome. My patience is high, especially with people who read the stickies and remember what they read.

Cupramine is the most gentle of the copper medications and is suitable for all fishes, including angels and tangs. You might want to read more about copper medication here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...ents/23130-copper-treatment-use-problems.html

All fish exposed to fish displaying Marine Ich need treatment, so don't hold off just because the fish looks good. As far as putting fish together. . .Avoid fishes that don't get along. Aim for about 5 gallons for every inch of fish and extra length for the Tangs and large Angels. Thus the 75 should work for both the Angel and the Tang together, assuming they get along.

The Large Angels quite often die fast when water quality goes down. Watch that very closely.

 

[blennielove]

Hi Lee,
Thanks for the reminder about water quality and this goes back to that cryptic question #3 way back near the beginning of the thread. It is very easy for me to make up water. I can have 120 gallons of ready mixed water in stand-by and as you had answered, have it mixed with cupramine prior to replacing the water in the tank - I would just have to do it in 4 gallon batches because I can't add the cupramine in my large water containers...I guess I will be building some muscles in my arms in the next few weeks! I think the PBT and Emperor get along, I'll probably put the cleaner wrasse in there with them for comfort measures.
I will be raising the salinity up starting today, not to mention, cleaning the HTs and start making water for them.

I LOVE all the stickies! It is often a life-saver for both me and my fishes!

Thanks again for your expertise, Lee!

 

[leebca]

Again, you're welcome.

Worthwhile perhaps to invest in a small new plastic container and a pump.