Pinched mantle disease?

DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
My Maxima has been suffering from pyramid snails for a couple of weeks now. I've been checking her every couple of days and removing any snails I find. She seemed to be looking better and then I went away for a few days. I got back today to find her looking like this.



I've read a couple of articles on clam diseases that @Oxylebius had pointed me at when I raised the snail ID question and from what I've read I reckon my clam is now suffering from pinched mantle disease but I wonder what the clam experts out there think from the picture? Any thoughts @Wrangy ?

I gather treatment is a bath in temperature matched RO/DI water for 15 minutes. I will continue to pick off the snails. Is the snail problem likely to have brought on the pinched mantle?
 
Wrangy

Wrangy

Acropora Nut
RS STAFF
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Unfortunately I don't have any of my clam references with me to really specifically help you out! So I'll do my best off memory :)

Firstly is does look a bit like pinched mantle and without a lot of close inspection it's what I would say it is buutt because the clam is closed up and the mantle is retracted evenly it makes me think that she's actually just really really pissed off with the snails. Generally the pinching is localised to a side and off to a section of the mantle, that and she's all shut up tight rather than gapping or open with a pinched section. The really tricky thing with your clam is the uneven and rough nature of her mantle.

Given the snails and the potential pinched mantle I would definitely go ahead with the RO treatment to cure the pinched mantle and it will hopefully kill some snails in the process! Here's a couple of online articles on the matter and snails for that instance too:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/jf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/aafeature1

Hopefully those will help you out a bit with a little more exact knowledge in them :) I would definitely treat the little clam for pinched mantle though!
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
Wrangy said:
Unfortunately I don't have any of my clam references with me to really specifically help you out! So I'll do my best off memory :)

Firstly is does look a bit like pinched mantle and without a lot of close inspection it's what I would say it is buutt because the clam is closed up and the mantle is retracted evenly it makes me think that she's actually just really really pissed off with the snails. Generally the pinching is localised to a side and off to a section of the mantle, that and she's all shut up tight rather than gapping or open with a pinched section. The really tricky thing with your clam is the uneven and rough nature of her mantle.

Given the snails and the potential pinched mantle I would definitely go ahead with the RO treatment to cure the pinched mantle and it will hopefully kill some snails in the process! Here's a couple of online articles on the matter and snails for that instance too:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/jf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/aafeature1

Hopefully those will help you out a bit with a little more exact knowledge in them :) I would definitely treat the little clam for pinched mantle though!
Click to expand...

Hi Dom,

Thanks for the links. I've just checked her over and got another 11 tiny snails from around the rim of the shell. They like to get into the tight crevices around the scutes. She is still all wrinkly tonight and the mantle is not extending much as per the photo. There is good white new shell though which according to the articles is good news. She is still reacting to shadows and light changes which I guess is positive too.

Dave
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
PSU4ME said:
I looked at this last night and my initial reaction was that it is just closed/pissed like wrongly said.

How bad is the snail infestation?
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Hi PSU,

So far (including tonight), I've removed 184 pyramid snails since I spotted the first one and posted on the HH forum on the 13th December. I've tried to check the clam over every couple of days. The first check I got a number of bigger snails but since then they have all been really small. Numbers do seem to be dropping off with only 11 tonight. Peak was 43 on the 20th December.

What do people think - give her a freshwater dip?

Dave
 
PSU4ME

PSU4ME

JoePa lives on!!!
Staff member
PREMIUM
Have you thought of adding a fish to help? I think every tank should have a yellow coris wrasse! My tank was very clean and extremely pest free, you couldn't find a bristle worm 10 minutes after over feeding....... Or any other worm/parasite. He was a great community fish but he was a jumper when scared. I never aimed to erradicate rather just control but he did an amazing job in my 120. He would appreciate sand to sleep in but he can also love in the rock work. By far my fav maintenance fish
 
Wrangy

Wrangy

Acropora Nut
RS STAFF
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DaveR11 said:
Hi Dom,

Thanks for the links. I've just checked her over and got another 11 tiny snails from around the rim of the shell. They like to get into the tight crevices around the scutes. She is still all wrinkly tonight and the mantle is not extending much as per the photo. There is good white new shell though which according to the articles is good news. She is still reacting to shadows and light changes which I guess is positive too.

Dave
Click to expand...
If she's reacting to light changes then she's still a reasonably healthy clam, it's once they stop reacting or start to gap then you're in trouble!
The reason that she's probably all closed up and pissed is because the snails will be around her foot and irritating her down there which will be fatal if left unchecked! I would definitely make sure when you're doing removals that you're checking her underside and around the foot. Once you've done a really good removal around that area, using a toothbrush to scrub is a good idea as it will get small snails and some of the eggs but make sure you don't hit any of the sensitive areas with the toothbrush though!

If after doing that (a day or two) nothing improves then go ahead with the RO dip as even if it's not pinched mantle she'll be fine and the snails won't handle it very well either! PSU raises a good point about natural predators too, you should definitely have a look at some of the wrasse species that eat them and will help you out a great deal :)
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the advice @PSU4ME and @Wrangy. I had been chatting with @Oxylebius about wrasse and had been considering a leopard wrasse (maybe a Potter's wrasse). In the article you linked Dom it mentions a bunch of wrasse species but not the leopard family so not sure if they will do the job. I have even bought a cover for the tank and have already deepened my sand bed in anticipation. Quarantine facilities are limited at the moment so no wrasse to help Madame Clam out in the short term. I see yellow coris are not considered 'reef safe' - I have 2 cleaner shrimp, a peppermint shrimp and a pistol shrimp plus HH feather dusters so I guess I would lose at least the tube worms. I guess the shrimp are too big for a 5" wrasse to tackle....? I also have lots of baby Trochus snails and a good pod population so a wrasse should do well. I also have a monster fire worm!

Dom I have checked her foot closely each time I have looked for snails and never seen any there. It is difficult to see well though as she is attached to a small rock which does obscure some of the view. All the snails I have seen have been around the scutes. I'll get a new, clean tooth brush and give her a careful scrub tomorrow. Just looked at her now and the mantle is extended a bit more than the photo but it still has the ruffles. Not sure if a toothbrush will get in around the foot either though.

I'm always learning with this hobby. Thanks for the advice guys!

Dave
 
PSU4ME

PSU4ME

JoePa lives on!!!
Staff member
PREMIUM
It is good news that she is reacting to the shadow..... Your crabs will let you know when she is beginning to kick the bucket :)

I would avoid the leopard wrasse family..... They can be very difficult and I think there are other better natural predator wrasses out there. I'm a huge leopard wrasse so if you're ready for one by all means give it a shot but that's a whole other subject!

As for QT, I don't normally give this advice but I wouldn't QT a wrasse. I never did, especially not the leopards! Wrasses are tough skinned and have a lower chance of having ich, I never had an issue with them. However, I only bought fish from LiveAquaria (divers den and prior to Petco buying them :)) and blue so aquatics. Always received healthy (and pest starved) specimens!

I used to feed my yellow coris the bristle worms that grew in my sump socks and refugium..... Not one ever made it to the sand bed before it was nabbed!
 
PSU4ME

PSU4ME

JoePa lives on!!!
Staff member
PREMIUM
Bad advice not to QT but you know what, it might just be crazy enough to work :)

However, if you have a big tank with a lot of "wrasse food" in it there is a possibility of him taking some time to clean the clam.

Every reef tank should have a yellow coris :)
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
PSU4ME said:
Bad advice not to QT but you know what, it might just be crazy enough to work :)

However, if you have a big tank with a lot of "wrasse food" in it there is a possibility of him taking some time to clean the clam.

Every reef tank should have a yellow coris :)
Click to expand...

I have a Red Sea S650 so a fairly big tank.

I've just been reading up on the wrasses suggested in the article Dom and Sue both sent me a link to. Your yellow wrasse Halichoeres chrysus sounds good but I already have a yellow fish (yellow tang) and the green wrasse Halichoeres chloropterus is also a very similar colour so not good on the aesthetic front. The four and six line wrasses Pseudocheilinus tetrataenia and Pseudocheilinus hexataenia will harass my shrimp and eat my Acro crabs and don't mix well with other fish of a similar size and the red coris grows huge and eats inverts.....

The tail spot wrasse Halichoeres melanurus might be an option.... Just found lots of new reading on wrasses......
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
Only 3 snails tonight but Madame Clam is still not looking very well so will probably give the RO bath a go in the next couple of days. I've been reading up on the Halichoeres wrasses. Some lovely looking fishes but if I added one I would probably lose my lovely little Acro crabs.....
 
Squatch XXL

Squatch XXL

Well-Known Member
Uggggghh.

I have been lurking this thread since it started (and a few of your others)......Clams are something I would enjoy having in the future.

UGGGGGGHHHH

I am in the opposite boat of you when it comes to unwelcomed HH and disease. I cannot introduce ANYTHING to my tank, as it will probably be beaten to death, and become a meal. All treatments of mine must be done in a qtank.

I would urge you to take treatment steps that do not involve fish that that would eat an acro crab ever. Something that cool has got to be left to live and love life.

I am really rooting for your clam. I hope that the ro/di treatment works.
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
Squatch XXL said:
Uggggghh.

I have been lurking this thread since it started (and a few of your others)......Clams are something I would enjoy having in the future.

UGGGGGGHHHH

I am in the opposite boat of you when it comes to unwelcomed HH and disease. I cannot introduce ANYTHING to my tank, as it will probably be beaten to death, and become a meal. All treatments of mine must be done in a qtank.

I would urge you to take treatment steps that do not involve fish that that would eat an acro crab ever. Something that cool has got to be left to live and love life.

I am really rooting for your clam. I hope that the ro/di treatment works.
Click to expand...

Thanks Squatch. I do like a more natural approach but having done some research on the Halichoeres wrasses I'm probably not going to down that route and lose my Acro crabs. The leopard wrasses seem much more suitable. Still my tiny Acro crabs would even be a starter for Kitty Kat!

I don't know if you guys can get BBC I-Player on the other side of the Atlantic but they are showing a great new nature documentary on the Great Barrier Reef. The first episode is worth a watch for you. It has film of courting peacock mantis! Looks like a dangerous game chatting up a lady mantis shrimp....
 
Squatch XXL

Squatch XXL

Well-Known Member
DaveR11 said:
Still my tiny Acro crabs would even be a starter for Kitty Kat!
Click to expand...
She is very selective, and only prefers turbo snails. She has ignored all of my smaller snails and hermits entirely.....And now the snails are breeding like crazy.

DaveR11 said:
It has film of courting peacock mantis! Looks like a dangerous game chatting up a lady mantis shrimp....
Click to expand...
Good gravy, that would be something to see.
 
DaveR11

DaveR11

Well-Known Member
Well I've seen no improvement in my clam so she is now sitting in a freshwater bath (pH adjusted). She has been in for 15 minutes so far. About every 2 seconds she closes her shell then gradually opens it again pumping water out. I'm going to give her 25 minutes tonight and hope she is looking better tomorrow. Interestingly no sign of snails tonight...
 
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