Newbies, a little something on cycling/breaking in a new reef tank.

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prow

Well-Known Member
Should I post this here or in the newbie forum????

Lately I have seen many questions on setting up/cycling a new reef tank. this is usually followed by "why and how to fix it threads" issues on algae out of control, phos levels crazy, not being able to rid the tank of nitrates, ph going crazy, ammonia spikes ect... its become some what of a pet peeve to see, hummm how to say, micro management:dunno: IMO, its more important to know whats going on and why your doing this or that and how that relates to the big picture. Not, I waited two weeks and my tank has finish cycling :whstlr: its ready to become a reef what can I add or its safe to add this or that right??. So because I have nothing better to do I wrote this big phat thingy:)

There are so many misunderstanding about establishing a new reef system. In part because there are so many ways to setup a reef system. Most of this will be based on the most common tank setups; sand beds with live rock and skimming. Will not get into sulfur systems or scrubbers or anything like that, only common basic setups. Like building anything its all about the prep work. Much like if your painting a wall, didn’t use primer first or didn't sand it smooth, or maybe started the second coat to soon peeling and chipping results, the finish product will be flawed. Same thinking should go into building a reef system. So an understanding of what the long term goals are and short term goals is very much needed. The first part of this may be repetitive as most have heard about “cycling” So lets start;

Ok the long term goal is to set up and establish a stable balanced reef ecosystem that will support our creatures using a bio filtration system via bacteria. The problem is this takes some time, a lot of time, and our systems have limits and need help to keep thing balanced. Good thing is you can enjoy watching things come together along the way. That does not mean after you “primer the wall” its ok to hang a couple pictures before you start panting. So some do’s and dont’s to consider is needed, there are many posts and articles on how to do this with some explanations. Like cycling the tank, but only a small part is usually explained and the goals for the next steps are often ignored as well as little mention how the dynamic involved. Its understanding the current goal and prep need for next goal that seems to be missing and in the end causes the most issues. Confused, hope not after this;

Like I said before, there are many ways to setup an ecosystem; here I am basing it on sand beds and LR, the nitrogen cycle. So before you read on, read this, the whole thing and understand it, even if you are familiar with it…Nitrogen Cycle

The first goal to establish a bio filtration system. This is where cycling (nitrogen) comes into play (well, really everything is just a cycle-we are just getting the ball rolling). The word cycling might not be the best usage of words here. Instead lets talk about what we are doing, growing/culturing bacteria. This takes time and must be done in stages. What we need to reach this goal;

Stage #1-growing aerobic bacteria. Water prep is just keeping temp, ph and salinity right. No need to skim or use lights. Best not to hook up either for now. Base rock is fine to use and perhaps much easier, less issues, than uncured or cured rock that really is not so cured, most LFS rock. Choosing rock is another thread, just want to note the die off and pollutants that can come from LR, in these cases using the skimmer right away adding carbon, getting a refugium going with macros and lots of water changes will be needed. An additional curing process maybe warranted as well. I hope by the end of this you will know why I say these things about LR and curing and die off.

1. Provide a surface area, a place for bacteria to attach and grow "spread”. The outer layers of live rock and/or upper layers of sand beds (top 2”) are the most common substrates used for this.

2. Provide O2. Aerobic bacteria use O2 for energy. O2 is provided by water currents and air currents via gas exchange at the surface. Limited to what is in the atmosphere and the % of water surface area coming in contact with air. (even a small sump increases this % big time, thus big time increase in gas exchange, just FYI) The more flow the more O2 will be carried to the bacteria. Keep in mind though the amount of gas exchange (CO2 for O2) at the surface is dependant on the amount of air flow and water flow coming in contact at the water surface. So a rippling of the water surface together with air flow at the water surface and good flow throughout the tank is needed, esp. if the tank is in a smaller closed room or if you like to keep the windows closed with the heater on. Pumps and fans will do, as seen in reading the link above increased gas exchange is needed at this time because of the rapid aerobic bacteria growth rates consuming up much of the O2. Extra power heads and bigger/more fans is a good idea right now, reduce it later after things start to balance themselves. If you don’t provide a good supply of O2 you will get overgrowths of unwanted bacteria like cyanobacteria. No lighting and good gas exchange really helps reduce this complication.

3. Provide food- more specific nitrogen via decomposition explained in the link above—ammonification and nitrification. From that you can see this can be provided from just the atmosphere. But that would take a real long time to establish a system that will support a fish. So we need to provide the best conditions for growth of certain bacteria. Don’t think about supporting fish at this time, focus on the prep work, the goal here is to grow bacteria and that’s it. Some use fish to provide a nitrogen source, but this is not only hard on the fish and is likely to kill it, it may actually overload the growing bacteria making it take even longer to balance things, remember we only want to encourage certain types of bacteria to grow here, those that convert ammonia. So the use of a deli (dead) shrimp is often used, which works fine. IMO, though it is best to use a few pieces of fresh/raw live rock and lots of base rock for this, with some feedings of flake foods or other type foods here and there. Whatever you use the thing is to understand what the goal is here (growing aerobic bacteria) and how it fits in with the long term goal, a balanced ecosystem.

4. Now sit back and test until NH3 and NH2 are at 0.0 and you see NO3 levels steadily rising. All this takes anywhere from 1 week to a couple months. It depends on the environment provided. If all the live rock was fresh/raw it will take some time, up to many months with heavy skimming, heavy flow, good air circulating and many water changes along the way to prevent unwanted things from overgrowing(cyano, sulfur pocket ect..) If not enough food was provided you end up getting a spike every time you add the smallest something. At this point, stage one is complete,:whstlr: Now don’t go off and start hanging pictures on the wall yet, this is only the primer coat;)

Stage #2-growing anaerobic bacteria. Many issues get rooted in during this stage. The goal is two fold. Growing anaerobic bac and preventing excessive algae growths. Here is where your tank starts to balance things out. The issues are whether or not it will reach a wanted balance or an unwanted balance. Maintain ph, temp and salinity levels. Its gets a little weird here so hang on. Whats needed and going on;

1. Provide a surface area. The inner layers of live rock and/or deeper layers of sand beds does the job. Anaerobic bac grow in areas where low to no O2 is available. Through many mechanisms anaerobic bacteria do indeed use O2 as an energy source. They just can not uptake it directly. They must first steal it from NO3. As they grow close to aerobic bacteria, that produce NO3, they break it up and steal the O2 before the NO3 gets into the water Colum, in short that is. The link above should have given you a good idea of how it works here. By having to steal the O2 they grow a lot slower then aerobic bacterium. Major patients is very needed during this time.

2. Provide a steady food source for continual growth of aerobic bacteria which in turn will feed the anaerobic bacterium. The catch here is there are faster growing things like algae that feed on NO3 also, but they are able to directly uptake NO3 and use other means to obtain their energy like photosynthesis, thus algae competes with anaerobic bac for NO3. Futhermore, algae increase O2 levels fueling aerobic bac. consequently, we many not see NO3 but do see algae growth so we add more fish or add a fish too early, leading to the use of algae, instead of the intended goal of bacteria as the main bio filter. The aerobic and anaerobic bac may never balance themselves if the algae is allowed to out compete the bacteria. (not going into algae scrubbers here, common system basics only) Adding part of your cleaning crew is perfect for this job. Don’t wait till NO3 levels are at 50 or something before adding some of the cleaning crew. Around 20 would be max I would do. Its not a good thing to let NO3 levels rise and fall back to zero before starting to control it with water changes or what not. Once/if you see a diatom bloom or other bloom you know its time to work on the NO3 till your anaerobic bac take over, not algae. NO3 levels of lower than 5 or 0.0 dose not mean there is not enough for anaerobic bacterial growth, remember anaerobic bac removes the NO3 before it gets into the water column, the NO3 in the water column is what algae feed on not bacteria. Once NH3 and NO2 hit zero don’t let NO3 levels go to high, below 10 is a good target. you may need to do a water change or two to bring down the NO3 and keep levels under 20 at all times, the lower the better. After some of the cleaners have been in there about a week or so and start eating and producing some waste a hardy fish can be added. Do think about how with each addition you are providing a continued food source for aerobic bacteria, which grows many times faster than anaerobic bacteria, may end up feeding unwanted algae. To much continual food supply to early and the aerobic bacteria overgrows which results in prolonged balancing between aerobic and anaerobic bacteria or even worse algae balancing, will go into that next.
*note; even though NO3 are 0.0 your anaerobic bacteria levels are still growing but not yet fully established, why frequent water changes and testing is needed in the beginning to prevent NO3 form feeding algae but at the same time building the anaerobic bac. go slow-and keep the NO3 levels down till you can add a fish and see no rise in NO3 levels.

3. preventing excessive algae growths. Just prior to adding some of the clean up crew hook up the skimmer and skim wet, its time to slow the aerobic bacteria growth rates some and allow the anaerobic bacteria to catch up, which includes preventing excessive algae growths. The goal here is to provide the best environment for anaerobic bacteria growth. The addition of carbon and phosban will go a long way in preventing algae growths as well. If you got it, light up the refugium and add macros to combat micro algae growths. You still don’t need lighting in the main tank, but if you have a fish or just want to see things keep the lighting down to minimum so as not to encourage algae growth. Here is the deal. After your tank, what is commonly known and mistakenly so called “cycles” (stage one) it can support fish sure, but remember this for a reef tank not a fish tank. Reaching a balance with the aid of algae is fine in FO tank but with a reef tank we want to keep it to a minimum. We want algae but for different reasons and not now (again, not going into scrubbers here, basics only) Because the anaerobic bacteria have not grown/established themselves in numbers high enough to balance with the aerobic bacteria already established, the tank will use other means to balance out the nitrates. The fact that algae can uptake NO3 directly and combine that with the decomposition process and aerobic bacterial consumption of O2 the resulting elevated CO2 concentrations provides a great environment for algae growth. Why min lighting, we don’t want to make it the perfect environment for algae we are shooting for an environment perfect for anaerobic bacteria. Algae is just the fastest and easiest compensating mech our tanks have, to reduce nitrates. (for those in the know we are not going into other cycles like the sulfur cycle and photosynthesis effects on ph type stuff). Many see algae blooms as a good sign in a new tank, it is kinda, its exporting nutrients, aiding with ph regulations, many other things and more importantly marks the establishment of aerobic bacteria in a new system. Like said earlier though, algae is wanted just not yet. Instead, at this time, the bloom is only a indication of whats going on. Understanding that seeing the first algae bloom in your new tank is just a compensating mechanism. The tank is using algae to uptake the NO3 in a effort to make up for the lack of anaerobic bacterial activity. Simply put blooms are due impart to a lack of anaerobic bacterial growth. What little anaerobic bacterial growths are present can not handle the NO3 that is being produced by the aerobic bacteria. The anaerobic bac are slow growers and are just getting overwhelmed. So, in a new tank, if you see a algae bloom and your NO3 levels are 0.0 that does not mean your tank is ready to add another fish, no no, it means its time to start providing an environment which encourages anaerobic bac growth(which may include adding a fish), while keeping algae growths in check, unless you like lots of algae growths that is.

4. Cycling the lighting in (while keeping nutrient levels down-phosphates, silicates, nitrate ect..while not allowing algae to get a foot hold), getting the chemistry set and playing with your water flow and stuff is whats next on the agenda. depending on the environment maintained the rock used and all that stuff it could take anywhere form 6-18months for the tank to fully mature. depending on how things go the time of adding things speeds up as you go. one fish every 30-45days for the first few months-the time between additions decrease as you go, its up to the tank on when/how long to add or wait. no worries, relax it does go pretty quick after things get going. its those first few months you really got to watch out for:contract:

5. chemisrty, flow patterns, turnover rates, respirations ect. ect... are topics to be mastered as your tank matures, basically too much to go into here:D

Well hope this helps someone understand whats going on while setting up a new reef. This was not/is not intended to be a how to. Its just a little more of holistic view on the goals and some of the major dynamics involved. Maybe just maybe this will help someone follow some of the good advice given around here instead of just doing what was said but not exactly, if you know what I mean.


Note; bio balls and sponge filters are used for fish only tanks, as most fish are not so sensitive to nitrates, bio balls only provide a surface area to support aerobic bacterial growths and end up collecting decaying matter. So for a reef you can see why they are not the greatest thing to use. Your providing a greater surface area for aerobic bacteria (our tanks are already lacking in anaerobic surface area, unless you keep a 12”+ sand bed and the tank is extra long and wide increasing the sand beds area or something crazy like that). Crushed coral beds filter socks also have the same issues as bio balls.

Note; we all end up overstocking our reefs and our tanks use other mech to keep things balanced. We help with skimmers and water changes ect…,algae is one mech and many that have issues with algae in tanks is a result of not putting the “prep” work in. Understanding some of the dynamics well really help you enjoy your creation and avoid some future head aches. i hope it has become apparent why everyone is always stressing on stocking slow and limiting additions.

Note; algae is a great thing. It provides foods keeps ph steady absorbs excess nutrients removes CO2 and adds O2 + much more. it can cause some ph swinging issues too (will not go into that here). however, if you put the prep work in algae can be a tank savor. Yes is can handle the CO2 from the Ca+ reactor and act as a buffer for the system. It can consume that skimmate if the skimmer overflows. if the bacteria’s are balanced and you over feed or something die, no worries algae will help take care of it without blooming too much, but if its already being used just to keep NO3 balanced then huge blooms can result from just the slightest over feedings or a even a couple snails dyeing off will cause a bloom or worse. anything could result in a chronic problems, as one of the main compensating mech is already being taxed.

Ok don’t want to go to deep and spoil the intended comprehension of this by overloading you with more dynamics.
 

BarbMazz

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Prow! I LOCE YOU! I don't have time to read it at this moment, but will as soon as I return.

I will let you know what I think of your big phat thingy in a couple of hours.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
cool thanks, i am pretty interested in what people have to say. it is kinda putting things in perspective or maybe its just a totally different perspective. who knows, lol. looking foreword to your thoughts:)
 

Witfull

Well-Known Member
i was confused for a second,,,the name prow and newbie just wasnt right...my lack of coffee mind said "huh? wha? no it doesnt say,,,yes it does..."
 

lcstorc

Well-Known Member
Great info. Should be a Sticky probably in the general category. A Sticky somewhere anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to explain to newbies. Now I can put a link to this thread in answers to cycling questions.
 

DrHank

Well-Known Member
Boy either you had a lot of time to kill, or your level of frustration over hearing the same questions over and over again forced you to try to explain.

I know that we all understand and agree with all that you're saying but I wonder if you've simplified it enough for the beginning hobbiest. The only way to know is with feedback from those just starting.

I think that a sticky would be a good idea. I'd recommend it in the beginner area since that is who it is intended to benefit.

I hesitated to respond today because I feel like I'm only running on three cylinders (trying to fight off a cold), but with all the time and effort you put into it I just couldn't not give you my opinion.

If it helps even one person, it was well worth your time, IMO. Good work!
 

ReefGuy69

Member
Great Job Prow. This should be a stickie. Now we need you to continue or do a follow up to this and do another article on Algae Scrubbers and more into PH swings. Since you didnt go into them on this article (Which is good cuz i would have gotten confused). Keep up the good work. This is why RS rocks! :thumbup:
 

prow

Well-Known Member
i was confused for a second,,,the name prow and newbie just wasnt right...my lack of coffee mind said "huh? wha? no it doesnt say,,,yes it does..."
sounds so familar :coffee:

Boy either you had a lot of time to kill, or your level of frustration over hearing the same questions over and over again forced you to try to explain.
mmm a little bit of both, leaning slightly towards the questions. fiqured it might help giving a methodology as a guide instead giving bunch of boundaries or rules to go by.

I know that we all understand and agree with all that you're saying but I wonder if you've simplified it enough for the beginning hobbiest. The only way to know is with feedback from those just starting.
funny you should say, i had it named "for the advanced newbie, a" but thought the link i gave would help any new newbies get up to speed. to be honest the thing that motivated me the most was all the of super simplified micromanagement info out there that overloads those just getting into reefs, everything after that starts getting more avanced. nothing seems to give a newbie to whatever is above newbie status any kind of methodology on starting out. they usually list a bunch of different ways to do the same job for every step and the big picture gets lost along the way.


Good Job Prow.. You typed your fingers off... great information
thanks, i got my carpal work out in for year:D
 

prow

Well-Known Member
Great Job Prow. This should be a stickie. Now we need you to continue or do a follow up to this and do another article on Algae Scrubbers and more into PH swings. Since you didnt go into them on this article (Which is good cuz i would have gotten confused). Keep up the good work. This is why RS rocks! :thumbup:
thanks for the props:thumbup: there is a thread on algae scrubbers somewhere around here, i remember it, not the name but one guy was there had a nice setup with pics:D it had some good info too.
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Very good article! Thanks for taking the time to prepare this article!!

I think it's time for a STICKY!!
 

BarbMazz

Well-Known Member
Okay, here goes. Keep in mind I'm a Newbie's Newbie; don't have my tank set up yet. I have done lots of reading, both books and here, so let's see where I stand. :)

I followed instructions :smirk: and read about the nitrogen life cycle. It scared me back to 10th grade chemistry. However, it did seem vaguely familiar. Keep in mind that chem was really the hardest thing for me, so I'm challenged right there!

Stage 1 seemed to be a basic explanation of the "cycle" I've read so much about. This is the part where we start things up and watch for the ammonia spike and fall, then the nitrite spike and fall, and watch for the rise of nitrAte. Our enclosed reefs are a mechanism of biological filtration that incorporates both aerobic and anerobic bacteria as the basics of biofiltration.

This stage is for the beginning growth of aerobic bacteria that is necessary for a successful reef. The rise of nitrAte is the signal that aerobic bacteria is indeed growing. It's easier to do this initial cycle without LR, unless you are using fresh/raw LR as a bacteria food source. Using your preferred substrate is also good as a bacteria food source.

Question: Fresh/raw LR, I assume, is what you are literally saying: LR that is delivered IN native saltwater less than 24hrs from being harvested, which would diminish die-off greatly?


Stage 2 is something I didn't even think about; the balance of algae (and oxygen production )and nitrAte to encourage anaerobic bacteria to grow. The proper balance of aerobic/anaerobic bacteria can prevent common problems down the road. This stage should not be rushed because anaerobic bacteria is much slower growing than aerobic bacteria.

Stage 2 appears to be a juggling act between keeping nitrAtes at a decent level (to allow anaerobic bacteria to grow) and preventing overgrowth of algae (which will allow too much oxygen in the water). Frequent water changes to keep nitrAte below 20 will help inhibit unwanted algae bloom, and will allow anaerobic bacteria to grow.

Keep livestock at a minimum; CUC things that will eat algae, but not contribute to the food levels FOR algae by adding too much food source.

The reason for keeping algae growth down is to inhibit oxygen in the tank which would in turn inhibit anaerobic bacteria growth. The point in this stage is to keep algae UNDERfed and anaerobic bacteria growth at a good steady rate.

If nitrAtes get to 0.0 during Stage 2 it is an indication that anaerobic bacteria is NOT growing, or not growing well. A low showing of nitrAtes is an indication that anaerobic bacteria is continuing to grow.

Stage 2 is the time to add some skimming, mechanical filtration, and macro algae to the sump to aid in inhibiting algae growth.

It's best not to add stock at this time.

Well, how did I do, Prow? Did I learn what you hoped to be teaching? Please rip me apart if necessary! :thumbup:

 

prow

Well-Known Member
Stage 1 seemed to be a basic explanation of the "cycle" I've read so much about. This is the part where we start things up and watch for the ammonia spike and fall, then the nitrite spike and fall, and watch for the rise of nitrAte. Our enclosed reefs are a mechanism of biological filtration that incorporates both aerobic and anerobic bacteria as the basics of biofiltration.

This stage is for the beginning growth of aerobic bacteria that is necessary for a successful reef. The rise of nitrAte is the signal that aerobic bacteria is indeed growing.
so far so good

It's easier to do this initial cycle without LR, unless you are using fresh/raw LR as a bacteria food source. Using your preferred substrate is also good as a bacteria food source.
not exactly, but close. the food for our target bacterium is nitrogen-microbes break down decaying matter and take the carbons which inturn releases ammonia(NH3)-thats the food source, any organic matter that gets broke down (that includes pee and poo, foods, dead things)-as they get broke down NH3 is released= the nitrogen in NH3 is the food for the first bac growths, the nitrogen in nititres(NO2) is food for the next bac growth and so on. the rock and substrate just provides a surface for bacteria to attach and grow. i think a definition of terms might help here.

term; "live rock" is a little missleading. all LR is, is just rock with stuff growing on it.

term; "base rock" rock with no life on it.

term; "cured rock" when rock is collected in the ocean it has tons of things growing on it (making it live rock). when it gets shipped over here much of that life dies, but not all, lots and lots survive. some things like sponges growing dont die instantly, but slowly starve over a couple weeks and die. when you cure the rock you are using the existing bacteria and stuff that did not die to eat up the dead/dieing stuff. it takes some time for all this stuff to get broke down and the water gets very polluted during a curing process, due to lots of organic matter getting broke down=lots of ammonia and stuff being produced/released, food for bacteria but a killer for other things.

so when i say i perfer to use base rock then add a couple good peices of LR, is because you dont have to deal with all the die off from a ton of LR=ton of ammonia. instead the couple peices of LR=little bit of die off and that is more than enough to populate the base rock, thus the base rock becomes live rock. same with sand, dead sand will become live sand once things start to grow on it(the difference between sand and rock is rock has aerobic and anaerobic zones inside it, a sand bed will have have aerobic zones but needs to be thick/deep to create a anaerobic zone). adding the couple peices of LR is like adding a "deli shrimp" or even pure ammonia. the only difference is there is more diversity of life on populated "live" rock. just one peice will spread that same life to all the base rock. the great thing here is you can add a certain amount(lbs) of LR to base rock so the resulting bacterial growths will be enough to support the waste(bac food) of a fish. as a bounus base rock cost about 1/3 of what live rock cost and in the end its all the same. a couple peices of LR to populate or a deli shrimp will work, but dosent have the diversity of life on it thats all. still a deli shrimp is fine to use and when you add corals that will increase the diversity of life anyway, but it takes a little longer to get the diversity spread around.

cured rock is the best. fully cured is ready to go and populated with all the bacteria needed, no dieing or dead stuff remains. but even then you will have some die off during transport to your tank, just not much, not enough to cause a cycle or spike. it can be used right away. unfortunatly, most of the "cured rock" out there is only labeled as cure rock, but in reality its rock that is still curing.

so its all the same really,
-using all "fresh" live rock there is bacteria already there and food is already there as well via dieing stuff, but to much food for the bacteria to eat up right away, that food for the bac will kill fish so you have to let the bacteria cycle the food(NH3 and stuff) takes time to cure/cycle bacteria food levels(NH3 and stuff) out. you also need to do many water changes and keep the water clean or unwanted thing will grow aswell. a PITA esp for a newbie.
-using base rock and a deli shrimp= no bacteria yet but not a ton of food either, dead(decaying orgaincs)(NH3). it takes time to grow bacteria to a levels that will support the waste from fish and any left over feeding(organics). adding more shrimp as you go helps.
-using base rock(for surface area) and some LR (really just populated base rock to seed the unpopulated rock) gives a food source from the dieing stuff( but not enough to overload the system for a long period of time) and has some bacteria already present + it adds some diversity of life.

-sand beds are up for debate; with rock anaerobic and aerobic surface areas are not equal but close enough to keep the bacterias to fairly balanced eachother. the deal with adding sand is if its not thick/deep enough you are only providing aerobic surface area and could cause a imbalace in aerobic/anaerobic bac. why its sometimes said sand beds are nitrate factories. the top 2-4inches of a sand bed creates aerobic zones. to balance with anaerobic zones the sand needs to be 4"-???+" in the depth(because of the growth rates of aerobics the top 2-4" must be matched with almost double the surface area for anaerobics). ex. a mid grain size sand, say the top 3" is aerobic zones. you would need an additional 5" of anaerobic zone surface area(under the 3" for a total of 8") of sand to balance.(just and example not actual iches needed) the exact depth depends on the grain size of the sand and sq in. of tank botton. the smaller grain size the shallower the anaerobic zones will be created. crushed coral as a substrate is not good because, like bio balls, the soze allow O2 to filter in, thus CC bed would have to be very very deep to balance zones. CC also traps organics another reason its refered to as a nitrate factory. shallow and CC beds need to be keep clean. sand is a huge subject all on its own.


did that make sense?? basically rock is rock-there is no "live" rock per se' just plain rock or rock with stuff growing on it. using uncured rock(LR) with lots of stuff growing on it, would be the same as using base rock and tossing in 100 jumbo deli shrimp, kinda:D you just dont get the diversity of life that comes with "LR" but you would get the mass NH3 spikes and stuff. people deal with all the die off and curing becasue they want that diversity of life and think its worth dealing with the bad to get the good stuff. i dont care so much and know i will be adding enough diversity of life as i add corals and what not. for me the bad outwieghs the good in these cases. base rock with some LR is a good middle, the best of both worlds IMO, you get more diversity then with just a deli shrimp but not as much as you would using all fresh LR. you dont have to deal with all the bad stuff that comes with LR only, but you do risk introducing more bad stuff than a deli shrimp and base rock would. with some LR bacteria colonies are present and a food souce is included, its neither too much(like with all LR) or lacking(like one deli shrimp).

note; i say its good to feed flake foods and stuff while cycling. this is to provide a continual food source (orangics) for the growing bac. if you use all LR you will not need this, and should not add more orangics. using a deli shrimp or just some LR might not provide enough and more should be added, until a fish(which provides a continuous food source) can be added, keep in mind a fish provides too much of a continoual food source in the beginning.

note; something many newbies using a deli shrimp do. after one deli shrimp decays and decomposition is complete the food is gone and the bacteria stop spreading. usually one shrimp does not provide enough food to grow enough bacteria to handle the waste from a fish, depends on the system. so many put in one small dead shrimp and see NH3 and NO2 rise and fall then NO3 rise and think yeah my cycle is over add a fish. this results in a NH3 spike and the tank has to recycle-this time with the fish in there, and now there is a constant addition of NH3 and but not enough bacteria to cycle it. however, because there is some bacteria established already it shortens the time it will take to cycle the new bac food. and everyone is alway happy to that first algae bloom. that just encourages many to add more fish when they see 0.0 on there testings and are happy because they have a biobiltration sysem, never mind the algae growths its good, lol--not yet right;) they may never have nitrate problems or water quality issues but 6-12months later they are left wondering why do i have this algae issue?? all water parameters are good, i make sure i do all the needed maintance. maybe is my light bulbs???

as you can see, rock is also a major subject all on its own, its hard to give "the big picture" while avoiding getting into the details to much. dont mind at all going into it little now tough:)think if i would have included this in the fist post and to think, this is only beginning of rock stuff:D


Question: Fresh/raw LR, I assume, is what you are literally saying: LR that is delivered IN native saltwater less than 24hrs from being harvested, which would diminish die-off greatly?
nooo not just 24hrs from ocean and not in ocean water, it takes longer than that to bring rock from fiji to the here and its not is water along the way. plus the trip to the LFS its weeks old by the time we see it, a week old min.
there is yet one other reason i dont like to use all "fresh" LR, too many dam hitchhikers, but some want them. i did not want to goto far into this in the original post as i did not want to lose the main point. plus i think there is enough for someone new to the hobby to deal with, dont want to introduce some killer algae like turf algae or something else that might be a huge challange and end in big long losing battles for the even the most advanced reefers to deal with
.

Stage 2 is something I didn't even think about; the balance of algae (and oxygen production )and nitrAte to encourage anaerobic bacteria to grow. The proper balance of aerobic/anaerobic bacteria can prevent common problems down the road. This stage should not be rushed because anaerobic bacteria is much slower growing than aerobic bacteria.
many new to the hobby and just as many that have been into for awhile never think about it either. and the same issue come up time and time again 6 months to a year down the line. many get frustrated and give up at that point. a little understanding i hope save some that kind of thing. after a year you want to enjoy it not sweet it.
Stage 2 appears to be a juggling act between keeping nitrAtes at a decent level (to allow anaerobic bacteria to grow) and preventing overgrowth of algae (which will allow too much oxygen in the water). Frequent water changes to keep nitrAte below 20 will help inhibit unwanted algae bloom, and will allow anaerobic bacteria to grow.
pretty much got it:thumbup: as it applies to this type setup right your thought process is right there. algae though doesnt really put in too much O2 (an issue perhaps with algae scrubbers). basically you could end up balancing things with algae and aerobic bacteria instead of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. have to becareful here its not black and white but i think your getting it. this is should help to expand your understanding of how dynamics come into play.
there is one type of setup the does use aerobic and algae as the main bio fliters. IMO, it just maybe the best system for reefs out there. that would be algae scrubbers. they use a seperate area -like a sump/refugium type setup to provide a environment for algae growth-turf algae that is, yes that same dreaded algae we hate to see in common setups. but its controlled and not allowed to grow up and cause issues. microbal and aerobic activinty still takes place in the main tank but algae grows in the area provided. algea will fist grow wherever the best environment is for them to grow. that would be the setup sump area aka scrubber. again though this is huge topic all on its own.

Keep livestock at a minimum; CUC things that will eat algae, but not contribute to the food levels FOR algae by adding too much food source.
exactly

The reason for keeping algae growth down is to inhibit oxygen in the tank which would in turn inhibit anaerobic bacteria growth. The point in this stage is to keep algae UNDERfed and anaerobic bacteria growth at a good steady rate.
sooo close. you the point of it, nail that. but the oxygen released by the algae does not effect anaerobic bacterial growth(at these levels in this case). but algae does uptake NO3 and because it grows so fast it out competes the anaerobic bacteria for that food source(NO3). if allowed the anaerobic bac will not balance much with aerobic. although the O2 released does not inhibit anaerobic bacteria growth it does encourage aerobic bacterial growth. so you can add fish add this add that and keep levels 0.0. but it will not be because your aerobic and anaerobic bacteria are doing most of the work. it will instead be aerobic bacteria and algae doing most of the work. hope that clear that up.

ok take a step back and look at things and how they fit in the "big picture". all these processes and more are all going on in every tank no matter what the setup. things will balance one way or the other. a fish dieing because the tank can not handle it, well the tank is just balancing things out. everyting becomes part of your little ecosystem. what we want to do is build and establish a certain system. in this case i have been talking about LR and skimmer setups, with perhaps a refugium and macros and/or sand bed. the goal of this system is to use mainly aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. now that does not mean that other process are not going to happen, we just want to use bacteria to do most of the work here. why, algae is ugly:invisible that and some of our corals dont like some of the algae that grows. so we want to keep the algae growth to min in the main tank. with this setup it just takes time with slow building up of anaerobics. get impatient and go to quick bad algae will be more than happy to take over the anaerobics job. what we can do is encourge good algae growth and limit bad algae growth. how, well start with patients and providing the best environment to grow anaerobics. once they are dominate your good to go. at this point you will have already started getting your chemisrty inline and started stocking the tank. still algae will grow but now the conditions/environment should be right for coralline growth. with little competition from other algaes and the chemisrty right to encourge coralline growth it should/will become the dominate algae:D now there are other systems that use algae or sulfur beds or this or that, knowing one and understand some of the dynamics will make so much easier to understand how other methods work/fit in and interact. this method is based on the nitrogen cycle (the entire nitrogen cycle) as the primary biofliter. so as we are building our system we try to limit and control other cycles/processes. including processes like photosynthesis with cycling in our lighting. did that make it more confussing or??????

If nitrAtes get to 0.0 during Stage 2 it is an indication that anaerobic bacteria is NOT growing, or not growing well. A low showing of nitrAtes is an indication that anaerobic bacteria is continuing to grow.
it could be growing perfectly. i am no biologist so dont for sure but do know we have some play here and yeah its likely not growing as fast as it could. so i would try to keep levels under 10 shooting for under 5 if you can. the perfect limit, mmmmm, would have to be just detectable.

Stage 2 is the time to add some skimming, mechanical filtration, and macro algae to the sump to aid in inhibiting algae growth.
yup yup--just word on the mechanical filtration; you will need to clean it often. why:) couple reasons.
1. provides a surface area for aerobic bacteria
2. collects stuff that starts to decompose which feeds the aerobic bac.
3. it in a high flow area=O2 rich water, which feeds the aerobics(ok not really feed but you get)
it can become a nitrate factory pretty quick. but if you clean it good every week or so should not be a issue.

It's best not to add stock at this time.
after NH3 and NO2 are 0.0 and you get your NO3 under 10 its time to add some CUC members:)


Well, how did I do, Prow? Did I learn what you hoped to be teaching? Please rip me apart if necessary! :thumbup:
even though i went into more detail on how some of the dynamics involved, you pretty much excatly got the point of the first post:thumbup:

no worries it takes a while to kown all the little things going on. wait til you get the chemistry bug going, talk about all kinds of different methods and thoughts-salt mixes and how much how often doing water changes alone gets interesting:bugout:


how is that for a follow up post:contract: -----man, i am turing into such a geek:away:
 

BarbMazz

Well-Known Member
I LOCE YOU, PROW!

You have NO idea how wonderful it is that you posted this when you did. :thumbup: :whstlr: .

What you replied with makes things even more clear. YOWZA!

Up to this point I've been planning to use LR/LS from Live Rock - Tampa Bay Saltwater Aquacultured Live Rock. I am/was (we'll see now) going to purchase "The Package" for my tank. When you have time would you please read about it? It's the reason I asked about "fresh/raw" LR.

After reading their setup instructions, it matches up pretty well with your adding LR at the beginning that would include a lot of water changes in the beginning. TBSW says to do water changes when nitrAte goes above a certain level.

People have mentioned that there are unwanted HH's on this rock, but I was thinking that may be kind of cool because I've not had a marine tank before. It seems attractive because I will experience more, see more, and know more.

Anyway, I'd love your opinion on that stuff. A few members here used it and seemed to have loved it: Dentoid, Goldenmean, and I think a couple of others. Terry, maybe?

I am planning on a DSB. The LS provided from TBSW is 1lb p/gallon, so I'll have 65lbs of LS from them, and planned on making up the difference with sugar-fine aragonite sand. I know now it's important to be especially patient if I want to go the way of aerobic/anaerobic bacteria biofiltration. I know I can do that because this project will not have an end; it will be a work of art in progress for as long as I care to do it.

One question that popped in mind; How exactly does one tell that anaerobic bacteria is in fact growing and there? Is it the lack of the bothersome types of algae growth?

I'm printing out what you've posted so I can study further. Now you know how the mind of one newbie works, too. :doh:

Thanks again SO much. You're GRAPE (great. my daughter says grape & i love that!) for taking the time to post this. I'm sure you have no idea how timely this is! If you were here I'd give you a hug for REAL. :)
 

lcstorc

Well-Known Member
Great information and explained very well.
Not to cloud the issue but I do want to mention the debate over LR vs Base rock. I wish I could find the old thread where it was discussed thoroughly.
There are many people that believe base rock never becomes live. I have even seen pictures (I believe from Cheeks69) of base rock that was cut open after being in the system for several years and only the very edges of the rock showed any life at all. A similar piece of LR showed growth throughout most of the rock. I think part of the issue is that people often use very dense base rock so there is little or no place for the bacteria to grow. I also think it takes quite some time for the bacteria to transfer from one to the other. For this reason I have done basically the opposite of what you do. The majority of my rock was bought as cured LR (Yeah right cured haha) and I have a small amount of base rock in the system. Maybe 80% LR and 20% base.
I don't want to confuse the issue but wanted to point out that this is a subject of debate as are many things in this hobby.

As far as the Tampa Bay rock IMO it is the best and the worst. It does have a large variety of life with little die off which is great, but it also has a lot of undesirable hitchikers. People using this rock find gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp etc for many months after the rock has been added to the system.

JMO
 

DrHank

Well-Known Member
I would think that it would be a whatever you like situation. If i were using very dense base rock, I would not expect what we consider living organisms deep within the rock. I would expect to find a large quantity of anaerobic bacteria which would now be dead because you cut the rock open and exposed them to air. In my mind, you need a mixture of porous and dense rock to achieve a good balance. why not go 60/40 LR/Base rock. You'd probably wind up with the best of both worlds. Just don't cut open the dense rock looking for living organisms. You shouldn't find them.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
What you replied with makes things even more clear. YOWZA!
nice, that is exactly what i was trying to do in the first post. not give a how to but to help those just getting into it, get an understanding of the "big picture" and some ways of control. that way when you start getting into discussion involving all the little "big" things- the more detailed stuff like in the second post big post- you can get your head around all the dynamics involved and "get it":) also when you look into the various system (plenums, scrubbers, berlin ect....) i hope it helps mainly with future learning.

*one note on algae, it has its own cycle like bacteria and others too. NH3 has other pathways and algae eat it up like bac only diff:).....just another reason to go slow with stocking levels:invisible remember some setups use mainly algae while others bacteria and so on. but in all systems there are many "cycles" going on and no matter what system your running the effect and interact with eachother. "changes in this cycle results in changes in that cycle"


Up to this point I've been planning to use LR/LS from
this is a quote off their site about the LR.
Several species of Caulerpa are found along with fleshy red and brown turf alga. Bryozoans are also common, both encrusting and bushy. Many small invertebrates such as small crabs, snails, and worms live on the rocks, including limpets and astrea snails. The list of species continues to grow with every trip. See our current catalog of organisms consisting of pictures taken by our customers.
that is enough for me to just say naaa, maybe if i could see it before i buy. but caulerpa, turf algae, bryozoans whatever crabs and stuff make it, na. thats just me though, maybe you plan on keeping things that need/like or are ok with those thing:dunno: comes down to other things like what corals and stuff will be in there. just like fish compatibility, to eachother or corals or inverts or algae(if you look at it from the algaes point of view). everything else works togather or not, some macro and micro algea is compatible with some corals but not all. with corals its the same thing, some are cool with this algae growing or that fish or invert some are not. kinda why i picked a setup that did not included to much added stuff to think about. the ultimate goal keeping all those colorful corals and fishes you will learn all kinds of things along the way, this was just to get you going in the right direction. "raw/fresh" LR has lots of goodies and/or nasties to learn about, depending on the total system, fish and corals:) you can either set it up with that rock and add coral that fit in with what ever is growing or HH in. many will fit in. or if needed deal with whatever is in there to allow for whatever corals you like. dont go to fast in learning, best to get a good solid base and filtration is great place to start. deciding what skimmer, learning how the skimmer works and how it helps should be much easier to understand now. if/or what to put in the sump refugium and how to set that up. like increased lighting for the refugium % wise than in the main tank, that encourages algae to grow in the sump not main tank. lots to learn-its never ending. but by no means do you need to know everything inorder to have a sweet tank and enjoy everything you raised:D
Live Rock - Tampa Bay Saltwater Aquacultured Live Rock. I am/was (we'll see now) going to purchase "The Package" for my tank. When you have time would you please read about it? It's the reason I asked about "fresh/raw" LR.
did not get to that sec. reading about the LR was enough. but again thats just my opinion and i happen to like to keep mmmm some sensitive corals that dont like caulerpa or bryozoans things growing around/on them. some corals coiuld careless. now is a good time to get in the habbit of reseaching anything and everything you plan on putting in the tank-both live and stuff used, anything.

After reading their setup instructions, it matches up pretty well with your adding LR at the beginning that would include a lot of water changes in the beginning. TBSW says to do water changes when nitrAte goes above a certain level.
yup and as you know there is a little more to it than that to it:)

People have mentioned that there are unwanted HH's on this rock, but I was thinking that may be kind of cool because I've not had a marine tank before. It seems attractive because I will experience more, see more, and know more.
hehe, been there done that. and yeah its pretty cool. i still enjoy it. i only perfer to use mostly based with some LR. the whole curing process, i hate doing it. i would rather build up than clean up:D what can i say, i have control issues....:lol:

Anyway, I'd love your opinion on that stuff. A few members here used it and seemed to have loved it: Dentoid, Goldenmean, and I think a couple of others. Terry, maybe?
o yeah i can understand why. i would just rather use a couple peices of that rock and try to control how much of what grows-- +HH its that control issue again:turntable

I am planning on a DSB. The LS provided from TBSW is 1lb p/gallon, so I'll have 65lbs of LS from them, and planned on making up the difference with sugar-fine aragonite sand. I know now it's important to be especially patient if I want to go the way of aerobic/anaerobic bacteria biofiltration. I know I can do that because this project will not have an end; it will be a work of art in progress for as long as I care to do it.
ok first, DSB are, you guessed it, a huge topic all its own:) i will say a couple things here though;
1. do read up on it. hopefully you will get more out of your research now.
2. it needs the same care as LR only different:stars: what i mean is it needs special care/setup considerations and maintenance. ex. keeping creature from digging down bringing O2 in and disturbing the anaerobic zones; many use layers of screening to avoid possible compications from this. there is more, much more, like said its a huge topic.
3. the amount of sand need is not determined by lbs/gal. is based on sq.”/grian size and wt. there are calculators to use, post a new thread on DSB setups before you set up yours to get more specific info.


One question that popped in mind; How exactly does one tell that anaerobic bacteria is in fact growing and there? Is it the lack of the bothersome types of algae growth?
easy. about the algae first, you will see it grow but dont let it become too prolific and start overgrowing everywhere. shoot for no growth but dont fight some, its going to grow no matter just keep it in super check as best you can at first, later it makes life a lot easier in keeping in check. when you get a chance, lol, try look into how algae works "cycles" not sure if thats the right word.

on the anaerobic bacterial activity, at first you wll not see much of anything but after they gets going air bubbles will start to come from the rock and sand bed. these are nirtogen gas bubbles that harmlessly float up and out into the atmosphere :wave:. remember anaerobic bac eatup NO3 and turn it into a nitrogenous gases, no worries though, those harmlessly floating up and out into atmosphere bubbles may seem like they will never end, but once the anaerobics establish the bubble production will slow to the point where the N gets reabsorbed to levels that you will not see anymore bubbles:thumbup:

HEY CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!! you just avoided the headache of looking for a air leak or messing with your skimmer and pumps because your getting all these micro bubbles form somewhere. you know now the likely cause of these in a few months:) for ref. this part, i know its a little tech, its in the dissimilation part of that link-the denitrification process of how anaerobics break down NO3. -that link goes into part of the nitrogen cycle many dont, just knowing that you one up one most, you deserve a little something for that:crowd:

--here is a link that lists and gives a brief discription of a couple different setups-it might start to become to a little clearer on how they work and what the goals are of each one. Silent revolution | Practical Fishkeeping magazine
Thanks again SO much. You're GRAPE (great. my daughter says grape & i love that!) for taking the time to post this. I'm sure you have no idea how timely this is! If you were here I'd give you a hug for REAL. :)
images




P.S. feel free to post any questions here, i dont want to make you think its a bother or anything like at all. i will do my best to give my thoughts on whatever and love reefing so its all good:invisible, but you might want to post questions on stuff like setting up a DSB on a thread of its own. there are a lot of good people and knowlegable reefers here that i am sure will have good input/ideas for ya. i will look out for any postings of course:) just might be able to go more indepth on this or that subject. now that you have a idea (or will have after digesting all this stuff) of how the dynamics work you can learn more, and more importantly comprehend what your learning. you know so we can make better/more informed choices in providing the best envirornment for your fishes/corals ect...
 

prow

Well-Known Member
I would think that it would be a whatever you like situation. If i were using very dense base rock, I would not expect what we consider living organisms deep within the rock. I would expect to find a large quantity of anaerobic bacteria which would now be dead because you cut the rock open and exposed them to air. In my mind, you need a mixture of porous and dense rock to achieve a good balance. why not go 60/40 LR/Base rock. You'd probably wind up with the best of both worlds. Just don't cut open the dense rock looking for living organisms. You shouldn't find them.
i agree with everything but the mixture of dense rock to porous rock.(of course i dont view "base" rock as being any more or less porous the "LR")IMO, because our tanks lack surface area for anaerobic growth anyway (one ex. is sand bed size, our tanks are limited and can not produce the % of anaerobic zones seen the oceans sand beds, the depth and size of the oceans sand beds scaled down to our tanks would be need to be much bigger and deeper then we are willing to put in) the more porous the all rock is the better. JMO

Great information and explained very well.
Not to cloud the issue but I do want to mention the debate over LR vs Base rock. I wish I could find the old thread where it was discussed thoroughly.
There are many people that believe base rock never becomes live. I have even seen pictures (I believe from Cheeks69) of base rock that was cut open after being in the system for several years and only the very edges of the rock showed any life at all. A similar piece of LR showed growth throughout most of the rock. I think part of the issue is that people often use very dense base rock so there is little or no place for the bacteria to grow. I also think it takes quite some time for the bacteria to transfer from one to the other. For this reason I have done basically the opposite of what you do. The majority of my rock was bought as cured LR (Yeah right cured haha) and I have a small amount of base rock in the system. Maybe 80% LR and 20% base.
I don't want to confuse the issue but wanted to point out that this is a subject of debate as are many things in this hobby.
mmmm, ok i have not read that and i dont want to belittle anyone or flame anything up or anything like that but thats ridiculous (hope that not to hard of a word, dont mean in a bad way). if you take a peice of LR out of the ocean, put it under a microscope do a bacterial count/algae analysis ect..then soak that rock in bleach, killing all the life on/in it-dechlorinate it, making it base rock and then put it back, wait a good long time come back and do the same checks under the microscope you will see bac and algae populations similar to what is was there prior to bleaching.

now the quality of the rock(in terms of its density/porousnessis) and how much surface area that provides is what determines the bacterial growths(along with foods and water parameters, competition from algae and what not "had to add that for newbies:)" ). that and the make up of the rock its self. with aragonite-based rock, which is what most of the rock we use is made of, the anaerobic baceterial zones actually dissolve the aragonite, seen in DSB aswell. so bacertia in this case create their own room. there are issues with this and limits but thats for a sand bed/rock kinda thread. i guess here too, i am cool with it:D and this thread is in the in depth area.

As far as the Tampa Bay rock IMO it is the best and the worst. It does have a large variety of life with little die off which is great, but it also has a lot of undesirable hitchikers. People using this rock find gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp etc for many months after the rock has been added to the system.
i share your same opinion, it could be the best or the worst. the important thing is to understand whats meant by good and bad-best or worst. or better said what you like and will fit in well together, o and how much effort your willing to go to care for whatever.
 
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BarbMazz

Well-Known Member
Good morning, Prow, and thanks again, because each time you add a bit more detail the picture becomes not quite so hazy.

I was doing some reading on "biotope" setups. And I think that's kinda what you're saying; a good way to set up a viable reef is to pick a piece of reef in the ocean, and aim for what is living together in that piece of reef. Fish, corals, plants, inverts, etc.

After reading that piece I thought it made tons of sense; what goes together in nature will have a better chance of going together in a closed reef system.

I thought about what creatures have struck me the most in my research, and the answer is clams. I'm also struck by host relationships; anemones and clowns, for example, or certain shrimps and anemones/fish. And, if possible in the future I would like to have a mandarin dragonet. So, reading more, I kind of zeroed in on a shallow reef clam tank.

So, I have the big picture of what I'd like to create, and I will begin to work my way down to the finer details to learn what all lives in that environment, how they mesh, and why they mesh. Now, I'll study from the perspective of the creature I'd like to raise. I'll be an algae, a shrimp, a coral, a fish, a clam and look around to see who I'd like for neighbors, and why I'd like them. Kinda zen! I now know to look into what sorts of nutrients each creature requires and how that fits into the bigger "cycle" picture. I see how "cycle" may not be the best descriptor, and I see how there are many cycles going on at once, at all different rates, and that different balances need to be monitored so that one won't take over too much.

It turns out my question about anaerobic bacteria was the jackpot question, because as soon as you mentioned the nitrogen gas bubbles in the sand bed, that first nitrogen cycle article you linked to went BAM! in my mind. Oh, much clearer now! LOL And, really the epiphany for me, here, is to look at things from the creature's point of view, not mine.

I will do as you suggest and start a discussion about DSBs, because I don't understand them at all, probably! :doh: I am going to have a sump tank with refugium, and I have seen that the fuge can be used as the DSB rather than the display tank.

Thanks again for your guidance, and you can bet that I'll be asking you further questions. I kinda feel like I'm back in school, and it's really good to be using the ole noggin again for something less mundane than usual!

It must be in serendipitous for me to study more before I begin to set up, because the LFS has said my tank is still not in, and they're hoping for next Friday. :time: The delay also provides practice in patience!
 
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