Marine Ich : Treatment Alternatives

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Basicly my whole display has it, I was planing to disconnect my sump , take out invertebrates and start lowering my salinity. Using only a hang on back filter ?

Hi!

I hope it’s OK if I moved your question from this thread to here. I didn’t want to get folks distracted by that old thread.

First of all let me say that there aren’t going to be easy answers on the topic of Marine Ich. Basically, there are lots of solutions with pros and cons. I’ll also add that I’m not an expert at all. I’ve done a ton of research on the topic, but have only ever dealt with it personally twice.

I would say that I’d personally lean against treating your display tank with hypo. One of the problems with hypo is it is challenging to maintain your water parameters and my fear with treating your display tank is that there will be a lot of die off and controlling ammonia will be real problem.

As you know because you’ve clearly been researching, there are really only 3 ways to truly reliably treat Marine Ich. Copper, hypo, and tank transfer. All of those require removing the fish to a QT and treating and all have their pros and cons.

However, in talking with saltwater experts locally they tell me those three solutions are not necessarily the best solution for many hobbiest. Presuming you don’t have a cycled QT tank already up and running, taking your fish out and putting them in a small uncycled tank for treatment puts a lot of stress of the fish and has issues on it’s own including that most hobbiest aren’t really successful in removing 100% of the Ich even if they remove and treat.

Therefore my local experts often recommend trying to treat in the display tank by boosting immunity through good feeding and things like vitachem. Maybe using something like seachem metroplex as well.

They are under no illusions that it’s necessarily a great option, they just think it may be the best one for many hobbiest given the challenges of removing and QT treating, which most of us aren’t very good at.

So, basically, you’ve got some choices to make and none of them are all that easy.

Personally, I’ve removed and treated with both copper in a cycled QT I keep running 365 and tank transfer. I’ve never treated in my display tank, but others here have. I’d be happy to discuss either method I’ve personally tried in more detail if you want to.
 
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kami808

New Member
Hi!

I hope it’s OK if I moved you question from this thread to here. I didn’t want to get folks distracted by that old thread.

First of all let me say that there aren’t going to be easy answers on the topic of Marine Ich. Basically, there are lots of solutions with pros and cons. I’ll also add that I’m not an expert at all. I’ve done a ton of research on the topic, but have only ever dealt with it personally twice.

I would say that I’d personally lean against treating your display tank with hypo. One of the problems with hypo is it is challenging to maintain your water parameters and my fear with treating your display tank is that there will be a lot of die off and controlling ammonia will be real problem.

As you know because you’ve clearly been researching, there are really only 3 ways to truly reliably treat Marine Ich. Copper, hypo, and tank transfer. All of those require removing the fish to a QT and treating and all have their pros and cons.

However, in talking with saltwater experts locally they tell me those three solutions are not necessarily the best solution for many hobbiest. Presuming you don’t have a cycled QT tank already up and running, taking your fish out and putting them in a small uncycled tank for treatment puts a lot of stress of the fish and has issues on it’s own including that most hobbiest aren’t really successful in removing 100% of the Ich even if they remove and treat.

Therefore my local experts often recommend trying to treat in tank by boosting immunity through good feeding and things like vitachem. Maybe using something like seachem metroplex as well.

They are under no illusions that it’s necessarily a great option, they just think it may be the best one for many hobbiest given the challenges of removing and QT treating, which most of us aren’t very good at.

So, basically, you’ve got some choices to make and none of them are all that easy.

Personally, I’ve removed and treated with both copper in a cycled QT I keep running 365 and tank transfer. I’ve never treated in my display tank, but others here have. I’d be happy to discuss either method I’ve personally tried in more detail if you want to.
Thank you very much for sharing this. But yes , I do not have a cycled QT right now . I currently have a 20gal fowlr and a 10 gal sump/refugium .

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Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Thank you very much for sharing this. But yes , I do not have a cycled QT right now . I currently have a 20gal fowlr and a 10 gal sump/refugium .

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Good to know.

I want to be clear I’m not telling you not to do Hypo on your DT. I’ve never done Hypo. From what I’ve read, it can be difficult to keep your parameters stable. But, if you are able to keep up with it and do the water changes necessary, by all means.

Marine Ich is a tough topic. I know I don’t know enough to tell anyone what to do and what is best for their particular circumstances.
 

kami808

New Member
Good to know.

I want to be clear I’m not telling you not to do Hypo on your DT. I’ve never done Hypo. From what I’ve read, it can be difficult to keep your parameters stable. But, if you are able to keep up with it and do the water changes necessary, by all means.

Marine Ich is a tough topic. I know I don’t know enough to tell anyone what to do and what is best for their particular circumstances.
My sg is 1.022 . Would keeping it on the low side and feed them good help ? Or is keeping it at the 1.025 range better ?

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Pat24601

Well-Known Member
My sg is 1.022 . Would keeping it on the low side and feed them good help ? Or is keeping it at the 1.025 range better ?

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If you are going that route, I’d just keep it wherever you normally do. In order for Hypo to be effective it really needs to be down around 1.09 - 1.10ish so that they free swimming Ich literally explode before they can attach to a fish.

There could be something I’m missing, though. So see if someone else chimes in.
 

kami808

New Member
If you are going that route, I’d just keep it at 1.025. In order for Hypo to be effective it really needs to be down around 1.09 - 1.10ish so that they free swimming Ich literally explode before they can attach to a fish. I don’t think there is any real difference between 1.022 and 1.025 in this case.
Ok. I will leave it and just try to feed them properly . Any thoughts on tempature ? Or other medication like paragaurd ?

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Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Ok. I will leave it and just try to feed them properly . Any thoughts on tempature ? Or other medication like paragaurd ?

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I don’t think temperature matters for Marine Ich, but I personally would treat the tank with either Paraguard or something like Metroplex.

If you do treat with Paraguard, though, take your inverts out as it isn’t considered safe for them. Metroplex might be an option. I haven’t looked at it closely.

I seriously considered treating in the display with Paraguard, but I never did. I think it’s a reasonable approach.

@Nobbygas is using Polyplab Medic.
 
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kami808

New Member
I don’t think temperature matters for Marine Ich, but I personally would treat the tank with either Paraguard or something like Metroplex.

If you do that, though, take your inverts out as it isn’t considered safe for them.

@Nobbygas is using Polyplab Medic.
Ok will do ! Thanks

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DaveK

Well-Known Member
SW ich is a mess to treat. Unfortunately there are no short cuts here. I strongly recommend against trying to treat in the main display tank using hyposalinity. Trying to do so will just about wipe out the biological base of the tank, and this can cause more harm than good.

Despite what others have claimed, I have yet to find any product that is "reef safe" and effective. The two treatments that do work, copper or hyposalinity, need to be done in a quarantine tank, and you must treat all your fish. If you don't have a quarantine tank, you need to get one. For disease treatment, it need not be cycled. This can mean that you need to make a lot of water changes to keep ammonia levels down.

Here are some links to well known threads on the subject.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/fish-with-white-spots-that-went-away.57175/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/marine-ich-myths-and-facts.23132/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/curing-fish-of-marine-ich.52236/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-hyposalinity-treatment-process.23131/
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/copper-treatment-use-problems.23130/

Yea I know setting up a quarantine tank is a pain in the neck. So is catching all the fish in the display tank, and then there is the 8 - 10 week quarantine / treatment period.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
BTW, @DaveK is THE expert on these forums on such matters and I agree with him those are the only proven ways to really treat.

Well, except one thing. @DaveK, why did you leave tank transfer out? I rather like it for an amateur hobbyist. It’s more work and more water, but it takes much less expertise to do well. The only thing you really need to know is how to tell time and know when 72 hours is up (well and how to keep things dry).
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
...
Well, except one thing. @DaveK, why did you leave tank transfer out? ...

I don't consider tank transfer to be an effective treatment. Way too much chance of messing things up and you need a several tanks to do it, and you must drain and sterilize the tank you moved the fish out of each time, if it's going to be effective.

As a note, people complain about not having a qt tank. Let alone the 2 or 3 tanks your going to need for the tank transfer method.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I don't consider tank transfer to be an effective treatment. Way too much chance of messing things up and you need a several tanks to do it, and you must drain and sterilize the tank you moved the fish out of each time, if it's going to be effective.

As a note, people complain about not having a qt tank. Let alone the 2 or 3 tanks your going to need for the tank transfer method.

Fair enough. When I did it worked (I believe), but I also used 4 tanks to avoid many of the issues you mention.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
I will leave it and just try to feed them properly


Feeding properly means many different things to different people. :cool:

There is also one more method that anyone younger than about 60 will not know about but some of us Geezers used many times and it is 100% effective.
The heat treatment. Just remove the animals and heat the water over 90 degrees for 24 or more hours. The ich will die but the microfauna and bacteria will be unaffected.
Then you can treat the fish any way you like, but copper in addition to "quinicrine hydrocloride" will clear a fish of ich in 24 hours. The corals will have to remain out of the tank for a while.
Many of these Geezer methods fell out of favor because most of us croaked. :eek:
No one makes any money on the heat method either so you will not see it advertised by anyone. But it works and there is no need to use a chemical that will stay in your water and probably affect bacteria, viruses and kill your microfauna that helps maintain our tank stability. You will probably notice that after you dose a tank with just about anything is when your problems start.

WE used these methods at the start of the hobby in stores and wholesalers ant today we don't need them because we know how to prevent our fish from becoming infected so we never have to cure them, but that is for another thread.
Have fun and I hope your fish stay healthy :D
 
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Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Feeding properly means many different things to different people. :cool:

There is also one more method that anyone younger than about 60 will not know about but some of us Geezers used many times and it is 100% effective.
The heat treatment. Just remove the animals and heat the water over 90 degrees for 24 or more hours. The ich will die but the microfauna and bacteria will be unaffected.
Then you can treat the fish any way you like, but copper in addition to "quinicrine hydrocloride" will clear a fish of ich in 24 hours. The corals will have to remain out of the tank for a while.
Many of these Geezer methods fell out of favor because most of us croaked. :eek:
No one makes any money on the heat method either so you will not see it advertised by anyone. But it works and there is no need to use a chemical that will stay in your water and probably affect bacteria, viruses and kill your microfauna that helps maintain our tank stability. You will probably notice that after you dose a tank with just about anything is when your problems start.

WE used these methods at the start of the hobby in stores and wholesalers ant today we don't need them because we know how to prevent our fish from becoming infected so we never have to cure them, but that is for another thread.
Have fun and I hope your fish stay healthy :D

This is actually pretty interesting. I’ve never even read this. Maybe it’s an alternative to leaving the tank fallow?
 
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Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Then you can treat the fish any way you like, but copper in addition to "quinicrine hydrocloride" will clear a fish of ich in 24 hours. The corals will have to remain out of the tank for a while.
:D

Dang it. I threw out my malaria medication from my India trip. Sounds like I could have used it.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
Dang it. I threw out my malaria medication from my India trip. Sounds like I could have used it.

Yes you could, thats what Quinicrine hydrocloride is.
I told you you have not heard of it. But you probably don't talk to Geezers with very old tanks that never worry about ich. :cool:
I think it's also in my book, but I forgot. :D
 

Uncle99

Well-Known Member
I have successfully treated Ick with both cupramine and hypo and for hardy fish both cupramine at half saltwater strength and hypo at same time.
It must be done outside the DT always.

Hypo is more successful with delicates like tangs as it is not as stressful on the fish if done right....that is down to 1.009 in say two days and then really slow .002 at a time on the way up. This is because the higher the salt, the harder it is for the fish to process, so a little at a time is less stress.

More hardy fish can take some cupramine as well but only at half strength because the QT water is more like fresh.

Cupramine at full strength if not Using HYPO in combination.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I have successfully treated Ick with both cupramine and hypo and for hardy fish both cupramine at half saltwater strength and hypo at same time.
It must be done outside the DT always.

Hypo is more successful with delicates like tangs as it is not as stressful on the fish if done right....that is down to 1.009 in say two days and then really slow .002 at a time on the way up. This is because the higher the salt, the harder it is for the fish to process, so a little at a time is less stress.

More hardy fish can take some cupramine as well but only at half strength because the QT water is more like fresh.

Cupramine at full strength if not Using HYPO in combination.

Can you help answer this for me.

As I researched treating Marine Ich, I did many, many hours of reading before deciding what to do.

I decided try copper and tank transfer. I’m really convinced tank transfer is underrated, but that’s a separate post.

I deliberately did not try Hypo. While I realize it's supposed to be the easiest on the fish, I became convinced by MANY articles including this one by Lee that it isn't easy. Particularly compelling was the part where Lee said "it isn't easy". :) Lee talks about the difficulties in maintaining PH balance, salinity, ammonia and nitrites.

I kinda figured if someone with Lee's experience (a fish disease expert since the 1960s as near as I can tell) is telling me something isn't easy, I should believe him.

I also read numerous posts by hobby level saltwater folks that tried hypo to very poor results.

All of that scared me off.

I was curious what you think of it. Clearly you've used it. With success. You are also the best nem expert I know, so I know you are a talented saltwater aquarist. :)

What's your opinion of Hypo especially for the hobby level saltwater person with no experience with it. Was I right to steer towards other methods?

BTW, I'm pretty happy with both my ability to do copper and tank transfer now that I found a decent copper test, which wasn't easy. I'm just curious about hypo. I was half tempted to try it just to get the experience. Maybe I will the next time I buy a fish with a potential ich problem.
 

kami808

New Member
Feeding properly means many different things to different people. :cool:

There is also one more method that anyone younger than about 60 will not know about but some of us Geezers used many times and it is 100% effective.
The heat treatment. Just remove the animals and heat the water over 90 degrees for 24 or more hours. The ich will die but the microfauna and bacteria will be unaffected.
Then you can treat the fish any way you like, but copper in addition to "quinicrine hydrocloride" will clear a fish of ich in 24 hours. The corals will have to remain out of the tank for a while.
Many of these Geezer methods fell out of favor because most of us croaked. :eek:
No one makes any money on the heat method either so you will not see it advertised by anyone. But it works and there is no need to use a chemical that will stay in your water and probably affect bacteria, viruses and kill your microfauna that helps maintain our tank stability. You will probably notice that after you dose a tank with just about anything is when your problems start.

WE used these methods at the start of the hobby in stores and wholesalers ant today we don't need them because we know how to prevent our fish from becoming infected so we never have to cure them, but that is for another thread.
Have fun and I hope your fish stay healthy :D
The lfs where I live is the ocean and amazon.com lol . I'm on day 3 of dropping sg. It's almost at 1.009 . I'm am waiting on that cuprmarine, copper, and my good heater to come in . I did fail to qt my new fishes that I now regret. Newbie mistake . Thanks for letting me know about hest treatment

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kami808

New Member
I have successfully treated Ick with both cupramine and hypo and for hardy fish both cupramine at half saltwater strength and hypo at same time.
It must be done outside the DT always.

Hypo is more successful with delicates like tangs as it is not as stressful on the fish if done right....that is down to 1.009 in say two days and then really slow .002 at a time on the way up. This is because the higher the salt, the harder it is for the fish to process, so a little at a time is less stress.

More hardy fish can take some cupramine as well but only at half strength because the QT water is more like fresh.

Cupramine at full strength if not Using HYPO in combination.
That's awesome to hear. That's currently the process I'm doing right now. Hope all goes well.

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