Macro Algae Photo Period

[prow]

i had to open my big mouth didn't i. ok like most things in the hobby only part of a cycle is known. in photosynthesis there are two parts, the first part is photosystems and the second is the Calvin Cycle(carbon fixation). other cycles get involved. here i am refering to the Calvin cycle, the second part of photosynthesis(sugars/starches) and photoinhibition(reduction of photosynthetic rates) and the xanthophyll cycle(uses Cadmium inhibits epoxidation of diatoxanthin/ its a regulatory mechanism involved in stress response).
nycthemeral cycles even come into play but, with out getting too into it, because then i would have to go into bio/orgainic chem, with all the eletrons added in to mess.
so in short during the day H20 and startchs are taken in and stored, O2 is produced from these proccesses. at night CO2 is taken up(the carbon source) and the starch is turned to sugar(energy) and used in the tissues for growth. this does occur during photoperiods but with a dark period, faster growth rates result. basically plants store energy during photoperiods and use it for growth at night. the xanthophyll cycle is a compensating mech used to slow photoinhibition during times of stress ie,..high levels of UV radiation and/or PAR levels. compesating mech get used up. perhaps why you hear about people having issues with sudden stoppings of growths or shrinking and disolving issue with cheato after long periods of time. with a dark cycle photosynthesis is more efficient and no unused starches and sugars are released. as a little bonus this is were phosphate bonds are broken to make matters even better there are three stages in the calvin cycle.
a diagram or two.

here are a couple links to what i am talking about. the calvin cycle also adds other organic product aside from sugar. way to tired to go all into this but here are a few link to check out.
Photosynthetic Dark Reaction
Chemistry for Biologists: Photosynthesis

 

[goody]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

So how long should I run my fuge light? What are the benefits of running it on opposite timing of main tank? Also, how often should I trim my cheato? My fuge section is only 10"x11" I believe.

 

[prow]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

i would run it about 12 hour oppisite your main tanks photoperiod. benefits are decreased ph swings and if your trying to get some zooplankton(pods and things) production out of your refugium a dark period really helps. for 24/7 lighting it might be fine, although its not as efficient without a calvin cycle and you spend IMO unesseccary money on electricity and bulbs not to mention it will not be much in the way of competing with other algaes in your main tank that are getting a clavin cycle, because the algaes in the main tank will be uptaking the CO2(carbon) that is present during dark period(imo your algae in teh sump should take care of another reason why no 24/7), something has to deal with it but it still may grow enough for your exporting needs.
trim it when you think there is too much and/or if it impedes flow.

the 24/7 lighting is really just for caulerpa because of it going sexual on you. for some its worth the reduction in growth rate to avoid that risk.

 

[Frankie]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

Great explanation Prow! I love the diagrams. They help a numb numb like me a lot in understanding what your trying to teach here.
I am going to go back on the 12/h cycle and watch the growth rates with my cheato and mangrove for a month and then back to 24/7 for a month to see the difference. I will take pictures. Here's one today after cutting my cheato back. It works out well being the first of the month. Remember this is a two year old refugium. I cut the cheato back two days ago. It was twice this size.

 

[prow]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

might want to try each way for a couple months but only measure growths the second month, allow some adaption time.

if you remeber, post the results here, so i dont miss it

one thing i left out, a way to put it in a nut shell with 24/7 lighting the xanthophyll cycle kicks in (slows photoinhibition during times of stress, extended photoperiods) the energy and resourses used for slowing photoinhibition could be use for growth instead, if/with a dark period allowed.

 

[BarbMazz]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

There's prow lookin' all smart again and everything.

Another helpful post about the Calvin cycle, thanks!

 

[jhnrb]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

Well done Prow. Nothing to add.

 

[prow]

Re: Red slime and bubbles in fuge

thanks

o hey frankie, to get a good comparison, weigh the cheato you have right now and leave your lighting on 24/7 for the next month. then weigh it in say 30 days. switch the lighting to a 12hour photoperiod and some new cheato and keep it under that for a few months then trim to match the beginning weight of the 24/7 cheato ball wait the same time frame and weigh it again. the reason;

couple things ro note; should weigh it dont go by looks. it may grow thicker or tighter.
also reason to get new cheato for the 12hour photoperiod, if it been there for awhile. not sure how long its been under 24/7 lighting, but it has been shown that prolonged periods of UV/PAR dose causes DNA changes/damage and other things. just to keep in mind.

 

[Woodstock]

(Copied here and made it a stickie)

 

[elliottb]

Just something to add about the photosynthesis, When there is light that is captured by an organism, it is chemical bond energy. This bond needs to be broken by the cell. This is where the ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) and ADP (adenosine diphosphate) come in. When the chemical bond is released it gets captured by high energy phosphate bonds (~P). Then the ~P combines with ADP and forms ATP which is the source of energy for cellular work.

I am currently studying biology in school incase you were wondering why I knew this.

 

[prow]

hey elliottb how goes it. best of luck to you on your class. you sure picked the right hobby, class should be a breeze

 

[elliottb]

hey elliottb how goes it. best of luck to you on your class. you sure picked the right hobby, class should be a breeze

I certainly(sp?) hope so! My last semester consisted of aviation, but chose to switch, so now I basically have to start form scratch with bio.

 

[BengBear]

Does having sufficient magnesium in the water promote growth of grape caulerpa remosa?

 

[prow]

no, Mg+ does not promote its growth. low levels may lead to toxicity of metals like Zn. it helps with ion exchange, its needed but does not promote growth.

 

[Triggerjay]

So what happened to frankies experiment? Hey prow, I have a Q for you... Most run a reverse lighting schedule on the fuge, to help prevent large PH swings,.... BUT when the macro grows (while lit) it produces oxygen. Wouldn't you want this to produce the oxygen during the day when the main tanks metabolism is at it's highest, to provide as much oxygen as possible for fish, corals, etc? I run about the same lighting schedule on the fuge as I do the display. I have little in the way of a PH swing. maybe .1 at the most. I used to always run my fuge reverse cycle, but changed my thinking on this theory. what are your thoughts on this?

Jason

 

[naperenterprise]

Just jumping aboard

I'll read more when I get home from work...

 

[elliottb]

So what happened to frankies experiment? Hey prow, I have a Q for you... Most run a reverse lighting schedule on the fuge, to help prevent large PH swings,.... BUT when the macro grows (while lit) it produces oxygen. Wouldn't you want this to produce the oxygen during the day when the main tanks metabolism is at it's highest, to provide as much oxygen as possible for fish, corals, etc? I run about the same lighting schedule on the fuge as I do the display. I have little in the way of a PH swing. maybe .1 at the most. I used to always run my fuge reverse cycle, but changed my thinking on this theory. what are your thoughts on this?

Jason

If you have a skimmer, you should be fine. I have my lighting times overlap for a bout 2-3 hours at night and in the morn.

 

[elliottb]

Does having sufficient magnesium in the water promote growth of grape caulerpa remosa?

mafnesium is what helps plants cope with the saltwater. mangroves for example need magnesium to help remove the salt from the water they take up and then they move the salt to their leaves.

 

[prow]

So what happened to frankies experiment?

hey, yeah, what happened frankie?

Hey prow, I have a Q for you... Most run a reverse lighting schedule on the fuge, to help prevent large PH swings,.... BUT when the macro grows (while lit) it produces oxygen. Wouldn't you want this to produce the oxygen during the day when the main tanks metabolism is at it's highest, to provide as much oxygen as possible for fish, corals, etc? I run about the same lighting schedule on the fuge as I do the display. I have little in the way of a PH swing. maybe .1 at the most. I used to always run my fuge reverse cycle, but changed my thinking on this theory. what are your thoughts on this?

reverse lighting is really not needed and not really intended for low O2 issues. its more for dealing with high CO2 issues. since most tanks dont have CO2 issues no need for interventioins. normally photosynthesis and cellular respirations will be equal

keep in mind CO2 is used in photosynthesis and is a byproduct of respirations/ as O2 is used in cellular respirations and is a byproduct of photosynthesis, so no need to run reverse lighting under normal conditions.

it should be noted however, that low CO2 and/or high O2 levels will inhibit carbon fixation via calvin cycle. you dont want as much O2 as possible, just enough so carbon fixation is not inhibited. just noted this so you can see that high CO2 promotes photosynthesis. where as high O2 levels favors celluar repirations. normally these reactions balance with eachother.

but if your running a Ca+reactor or have high indoor CO2 issues reverse ilghting can help prevent, or better said, reduce ph swings via reducing accumulations.

however, if your wanting increased nutrient exporting, reverse lighting can help. higher CO2 levels are wanted here and provided while the DT lighting is off. in a tank with normal levels it will have a minimal impact though. cellular repirations will follow suit as increased photosynthesis adds/increases O2, to a point. not sure if i said this clear or not. photosynthesis can get complicated with all the various processes that get involved. on my new tank setup i plan on using macros only to deal with the excess CO2 coming from my Ca+ reactor. as a bonus i get increased exporting of nutrients due to the available CO2. for others they may be wanting macros to mainly export nutrients, so running the same photoperiod allows the macros in the fug to directly compete with algaes in the DT. on the other hand for exproting, running reverse lighting may aid in the growth of the macros in the fuge as more CO2 is available within the system. but in a tank that runs with normal CO2/O2 (ph) levels i dout there would be much difference. for some with high indoor CO2 or if the tank is unable to blow off the continuous CO2 additions from a Ca+ reactor or other, reverse lighting will help big time. here you need to take into account the tanks respirations, some tanks do not have enough gas exchange to blow off excess CO2 so reverse lightings helps with saturations levels. other tanks may have plenty of gas exchange to deal with any excess CO2 and actually need additional CO2 to promote growth for exporting. remember a 100gal tank that is 3 feet tall does not have the capability a 100gal tank 1 foot tall has, talking about surface exhange here.

this post could be confussing because i am talking about two different things. macros used for CO2/ph (gas exchange) issues and macros for exporting nutrients. both effect the other. so for ph issues(high CO2 levels) reverse lighting is a good intervention to help stabilize the ph. for exporting if CO2/O2 are at normal levels reverse lighting will not do much. reverse lighting, IMO, only needs to be used if excessive CO2 is present and your ph is being depressed at night because of it.

i think i can say this better if its hard to follow.

 

[vdituri]

For a tank with an overflow and a skimmer and surface agitation would you consider the reverse lighting helpful? Or is it something that should be tested for using a night time PH measurement?

Just trying to see if I've absorbed enough. lol