Formalin treatment

[Woodstock]

Leebca,

I might have overlooked it but I cannot find any information regarding formalin treatments; and the "formalin, friend or foe" link is broken.

I have a pair of wild caught A. Latezonatus clowns. I first placed them in a large 60 gallon QT which has sand and rock. I performed 30 min formalin (37% @ 1ml/gal) dips every other day for a total of 3 dips. Meanwhile, I treated them for five days with Maracyn two saltwater because the female had a red streak on her tail and her left eye had popeye.

They have since been moved from the 60 gal tank into a 29 gallon bare bottom and are now in day 2 of a Cupramine treatment. Although they are eating great, breathing normal, and their skin does look better, one still has a few "hazy" spots on its skin. Possible damage from netting & the prior formalin dips?...

My concern is that they could have brooklynella and might need to be switched to a long term formalin bath since copper does not kill brook.

At what point do I switch treatments?
When/if I see them gasping for air? Or if their skin patches spread?
Would I do a large water change and then begin the formalin bath?
Would the residual copper be toxic with the formalin?

Thanks in advance!

Here they are upon arrival and prior to the formalin dips and Maracyn-two treatment:

female with left eye (pop-eye)

This skin haze got worse so I began the formalin dips:

 

[leebca]

I have modified the link to now point to a new sticky I put into the forum. Please see this: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...malin-treatment-marine-fishes.html#post708528

Generally, I would not perform a Formalin treatment on a fish showing striations. Just not worth risking getting Formalin (gas) inside the fish. It would be a poison. But at least in this case, it didn't kill.

Is the one with hazy spots the one that has/had the striation? What status is there now of the striation and Popeye?

I'm not sure why you might think they have Brook when you gave them a Formalin treatment. Maybe you can enlighten me about this.

At this stage, just continue on with and finish the copper treatment and do nothing else. They have been through a lot. In general, for the future, when there are multiple problems with fish, you want to first treat those that are displaying, before performing any prophylactic treatments. That is, fix what is displaying then attack what 'may' be there.

After the copper treatment, remove the copper as recommended -- large water change, then use activated carbon. At the point where the copper test kit shows no trace of copper, then through out the old carbon and put in new. The next day it would be okay to perform a Formalin treatment, using that water for the bath.

 

[Woodstock]

Thank you Lee for the information!

Is the one with hazy spots the one that has/had the striation? What status is there now of the striation and Popeye?

Yes. The striation healed but the popeye remains; though not as severe. The fish is blind in this eye Hopefully, it will heal with time?

I'm not sure why you might think they have Brook when you gave them a Formalin treatment. Maybe you can enlighten me about this.

Well, although I performed the formalin dips properly, the fact that I was putting them right back into the 60 gallon makes me a bit paranoid about recontaminating them. Hopefully, they do not have brook now and the Cupramine treatment will fix their 'hazy' skin areas.

 

[leebca]

For the most part, the tank 'contaminant ion' is handled by the multiple treatments. The preferred treatment is to treat all fish at the same time, same bath.

If you did this, then there should be no worries at all.

 

[Woodstock]

Humm... I treated three fish in sequence but not at the exact same time. Fish #1 gets dipped for 30 minutes and then returned to tank, then Fish#2, then Fish #3. So within 90 minutes all fish are treated.
Is that close enough?

 

[leebca]

I'm afraid any time is a potential opportunity to reinfect the treated fish from the untreated fish(es). If you believe food can be eaten off a dirty floor if you retrieve it within 5 seconds, then all is fine.:faces:

 

[Woodstock]

LOL~ Nice analogy

Okay... I'll keep a VERY close eye on them for brooklynella or any changes in their behavior or breathing rates.

Thank you Lee! I'll let you know how they do!

 

[Woodstock]

Tonight's inspection and photos

Lee,
Other than 'dirty/hazy' white stripes, the clowns look and behave (eating like pigs) okay. However, I am very disturbed with the CBB. It has small white spots on its fins and nose. Maybe the spots are ruptured parasites?

It is also hovering in one corner, not moving more than 1"... even when I took all of the photos nor is it interested in food. I did see it shake its fins a few times but it never swam away. Its breathing appears normal; which is odd. I would think it would be breathing heavily with parasites...?

I have treated this same fish with cupramine upon arrival several months ago and it never behaved so stressed. It actually ate during its prior Cupramine treatment and would constantly explore the tank.

I tested the copper level and it is perfect.

What do you think?

 

[leebca]

When you acquired the Anemonefish, did they have that appearance in the white stripe areas?

Regarding the CBB. . .great photo. I have not seen anything like that before. The fish's behavior is one of resignation to upcoming death. Butterflyfishes often take on this behavior as an indication of some sort or kind of slow death.

Only parasites that affect gills would affect breathing rates. There are also other conditions that affect gills which would manifest as a breathing problem. Not all parasites affect/infect gills.

Even though this fish was treated with copper previously, had it still gone through the 6 week quarantine? That is, I am wondering how 'they' may have gotten into the aquarium.

It certainly appears to be something attached, rather than embedded into the fish. If that is true, a treatment with an organophosphate should 'disturb them' if they are living. External living parasites are often killed or stressed out by organophosphate medications.

However, I've not seen a Butterflyfish recover from its resignation type behavior.

 

[Woodstock]

Yes, the clowns had that 'hazy' appearance on the white stripes. I beleive that it has improved a bit.

That CBB was QT'd for about 9 weeks; The first few days was spent getting it to eat homemade mush (which it did with gusto!) and then a 14 day Cupramine treatment was performed. It was also dewormed with praziquantel. It was completely healthy. Whatever it has now is definately from the new clownfish.

I do not think the CBB will die. It was just so healthy prior to all of this. I feel confident we can cure it.

 

[Frankie]

Great pictures Doni. I think I will tag along with this one and learn a few things.
I am wondering if it is some type of tumor on the CBB?

 

[leebca]

I would think in terms of tumor too, but there are multiple and in different locations. This is not how tumors operate (in general).

Regarding the Anemonefish, I think you may learn that what you see is in fact their normal coloration and marking. Not all are 'perfectly' marked. There are so many variations in the wild and in captivity that a totally white stripe is a matter of breeding and the 'off colorations' are a matter of breeding/genetics.

I do notice that have frayed fins so that are not at peak health in general. A top notch diet with supplements will definitely improve their condition and color, but won't change what is genetically specified.

 

[Woodstock]

UPDATE:
All are doing okay.

I did not know what else to do for the CBB so I did water changes. Although the water tested zero for ammonia and nitrites, I performed a large water change every day for three days (with appropriate cupramine additions) and the CBB began behaving normal. Those strange raised spots are gone and he is explorining and picking at food. Coincidence? Maybe, but I know the water changes did not hurt!

 

[leebca]

That, to me, is nothing short of remarkable! I've never ever known a Butterflyfish to come out of its 'catatonic state' and return to normal. Those features aren't there anymore? It's now sounding as if it isn't/wasn't a pathogen. ?

 

[Frankie]

Now I am wondering if it was just some type of contaminant in the water that binded to the fishes scales temporarily. Looking at the picture again, the matter on its face reminds me of some sponge I have seen under live rock in the darker places. It has that same milky appearance.

 

[Woodstock]

I am thinking the copper is taking care of the problem since the raised spots have disappeared.
Here are some pics I just took:

 

[Frankie]

It's been a few days now Doni, how is everything going?

 

[Woodstock]

Going great! They only have about 4 more days of the Cupramine treatment left!

The white bars on the clowns are getting brighter and the CBB is doing well.

 

[Frankie]

Sweet!! Nice work Doctor

 

[Woodstock]

A few photos I took of the Latz this morning.
I should have taken a few of the copperband also... it is also doing great!



Female

MALE