Desperately need advice - please!

[Silverhawk]

Oh I hope someone with more experience than I have can please help me. I'll attach fotos to show the issue I'm having with a very simple - but very personally important - fish that is having an issue I'm not able to arrest or alleviate. Obviously a Yellow Tail Damsel. Yes, her tail is gone because of a 'bad' Niger Trigger I had, but removing the Trigger proved to be an easy 'fix,' while this disease the fish has is not. Is it 'lateral line?' I don't know, but whatever it is I've not been able to cure or arrest it. I've tried Melafix - and while I love that stuff, it didn't help at all. Most recently I tried Kordon 'Rid Fungus' after reading it would help - but it has not. I should have gone to you all in this forum long ago about this - but finally I'm here in need of your help. I've had the 50 gal for about 7 years, and this fish for about 5 years - so I'm not a 'neophyte' and not an idiot (I hope). I run a 10W UV sterilizer, a HOB protein skimmer, mechanical filtration, and it's a FOWLER that is for the most part quite stable. All the fish in it I've had for 5 years - so I hope that says something. And yes, I do have a quarantine tank that I can set up in 15 minutes if your advice on treatment is to do so. When the Niger decided to kill the Yellowtail, I had the Yellowtail in the Q tank in 15 minutes and it somehow survived. It was badly torn up and I treated with Melafix and Erythromycin and she somehow pulled out of it. The trigger went to the LFS - reluctantly but my philosophy is that the trouble maker leaves and the innocents stay. So back in the main tank the Yellowtail went . . . and then the 'disease' started. So treatment for that was Melafix again in main tank (not Q tank) and then 'Rid Fungus' again in main tank (as they swore it was fine to do so). But nothing has worked. PLEASE tell me what to do here - and I promise you'll not be wasting your time. I love this fish and I'll do whatever is advised. Thanks VERY much in advance - Dave Williams - BTW the fotos were taken with a flash and so there is a bit of a 'false' coloration on them, but they certainly capture the areas of disease for this purpose.

 

[DaveK]

Yes, the disease does seem to be hole in the head and lateral line erosion. You can read up on it here (offsite) - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php The article gives you some areas you can check out. However, I think you have done about everything you could do with meds, so I don't think I'd medicate the fish again.

Note that there can be various causes of this condition, so you need to look at all options. Fish can live for years with these conditions, so as long as the fish isn't suffering your ok, at least for the moment. The fish could have also been wounded from it's encounter with the trigger fish. If that's the case, it's not going to get much better.

While we are on the subject, it is usually a bad idea to medicate you main tank. Most meds will do a lot of harm to the bacteria in the systen and any other life in it. It would be a good idea to make some large partial water changes to remove and residue from the meds.

Overall, I'd concentrate on the water quality and the fish's diet. Also check out the use of carbon and stray electrical voltages. I think that once you do all this, you will have done just about everything you can do. Often this condition doesn't improve.

 

[Silverhawk]

Yes, the disease does seem to be hole in the head and lateral line erosion. You can read up on it here (offsite) - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php The article gives you some areas you can check out. However, I think you have done about everything you could do with meds, so I don't think I'd medicate the fish again.

Note that there can be various causes of this condition, so you need to look at all options. Fish can live for years with these conditions, so as long as the fish isn't suffering your ok, at least for the moment. The fish could have also been wounded from it's encounter with the trigger fish. If that's the case, it's not going to get much better.

While we are on the subject, it is usually a bad idea to medicate you main tank. Most meds will do a lot of harm to the bacteria in the systen and any other life in it. It would be a good idea to make some large partial water changes to remove and residue from the meds.

Overall, I'd concentrate on the water quality and the fish's diet. Also check out the use of carbon and stray electrical voltages. I think that once you do all this, you will have done just about everything you can do. Often this condition doesn't improve.

DaveK: Thanks VERY much. I'll check the hot link as soon as I can but in the meantime:

Your mention of carbon - are you discouraging it's use? I used to use it all the time, then read some were suspicious that it was causing issues . . . so I backed off of using it. On the stray voltage - do you recommend a ground probe in the tank? I read the pro's and con's on that also . . . a con being that there isn't a current in the water unless you create one and you do that by provide a pathway to ground. I'm an electronics tech and that made very good a logical sense to me. Your thoughts?

The fish is not suffering - amen. She's named 'Cruiser' for good reason She's just been a super good fish and she behaves as though there is nothing wrong . . . but I 'suffer' watching it, you know?

Thanks again VERY much and I'll get to the hot link to the article ASAP, and yes, it's time to do a water change. I'm very careful with those and hope I'm not wrong in generally trying to exchange a full 30 gallons when I do . . . and yes, I do have a RODI system so my water is super 'clean.'

Thanks again, Dave Williams

 

[Uncle99]

I have read the articles on HLLE caused by activated carbon. Yes some believe there is a link.
In your case, I would agree, for the time being, hold off the carbon.

I have seen HLLE more with tangs, especially Blues and Powder Blues, but it can affect damsels as well, but nit as common

I was not so clear on the events. When did this happen? Has this been progressive or just overnight. You had this fish for 5 years, when did you first notice it? I just could not understand the progression in your post.

To me, It looks like HLLE or he got in a fight with the trig, and lost! (Including the tail)
Could this be bites? Damsels are known for doing head to head battle and certainly yellow tails are not on my list of weak.

Seen a couple of clowns bite each other on the face before, quite violent. One dragged the other around the tank by the face. Of course, we put a stop to that action.

I have a rule in medicating which is I don't Medicate if I can't accurately diagnos.

If the fish seems happy I am with DaveK on high protein feeding, consistent and varied diet, strong well fed fish certainly fair better under all circumstances.

Many of the issues we face with fish diease begins with stress, no question he's been stressed, keep water on point, consistent and stable at all times, you have removed the stress component, let's see what time can heel.

 

[DaveK]

DaveK: Thanks VERY much. I'll check the hot link as soon as I can but in the meantime:

Your mention of carbon - are you discouraging it's use? I used to use it all the time, then read some were suspicious that it was causing issues . . . so I backed off of using it. On the stray voltage - do you recommend a ground probe in the tank? I read the pro's and con's on that also . . . a con being that there isn't a current in the water unless you create one and you do that by provide a pathway to ground. I'm an electronics tech and that made very good a logical sense to me. Your thoughts?

The fish is not suffering - amen. She's named 'Cruiser' for good reason She's just been a super good fish and she behaves as though there is nothing wrong . . . but I 'suffer' watching it, you know?

Thanks again VERY much and I'll get to the hot link to the article ASAP, and yes, it's time to do a water change. I'm very careful with those and hope I'm not wrong in generally trying to exchange a full 30 gallons when I do . . . and yes, I do have a RODI system so my water is super 'clean.'

Thanks again, Dave Williams

On carbon, generally I tend to use it only once and awhile. It should be washed until it's extremely clean. You may not need it at all if your water stays clear and doesn't yellow.

I'd recommend a grounding probe. It's sure not going to hurt. Also use a VOM meter to test for stray voltages. Check the cords of anything that goes into the tank like pumps, heaters and so on. A bad cord can be a big source of stray voltage.

When you say you change 30 gal, how large is the tank and sump if you have one?

 

[Paul B]

You can not cure HLLE with drugs because it is not a disease but a condition. I don't believe in the carbon or stray electricity thing as I believe it comes from stress to the nervous system and it is a condition of captivity, wild fish don't get it.

I would do nothing for that fish as he is already over medicated which will probably make it worse. Just leave him alone and try to feed him good foods, not dry food but something frozen or live. Clams, worms or even mysis but live worms like blackworms would be best.

IMO the reason tangs get HLLE so often is because they are schooling fish and never swim alone. The lack of being in a school and the constant feel of the tank walls on them which they can't get away from causes the condition. The lateral line on a fish can sense things far away and in a tank, a fishes lateral system is constantly bombarded with signals and it destroys the nerves of the line starting on it's head.

In your fishes case, the trigger fish started the stress. Leave the fish alone and don't medicate.

 

[saintsreturn]

I can attest that HLLE and the erosion is a disappointing and incurable situation. I have a sailfin that suffered the wrath of stray current in my tank and it did some work on her. I since corrected the issue and added a grounding probe. She is very healthy and living well, however, the damage has not healed.

Now the reason i share this.... I chased the dragon on this one and tried everything to "cure" her and solve the issue as if it was something i could. I ended up adding to many nutrients to the tank and fought algae issues for months. Not the typical "i have these area of algae and want it gone" type, but the rapidly growing, coral covering, sand stealing thick stuff that just plagued the tank.

The solution? I stopped everything. I reduced the amount of carbon i ran (although i still use it), reduced the brightness of the lights which offered some calm to the tank (not for algae reasons), stopped the meds and food additives and reduced the water changes.

As mentioned, since you dosed the display, i would do a heavy water change first; but make sure your numbers match as closely as possible. Then sit back and feed good, quality foods. You can see this fishes lateral line clearly in one of your pictures and your fishes faces looks a lot like the erosion in my sailfin. I will see if i can find a pic to share with you.

For piece of mind, please check for stray voltage using a voltmeter or just replace your heater depending on its age.

Good luck and sucks that your first post was here, but hopefully your topics can switch to something more enjoyable soon.

 

[saintsreturn]

Here is the thread i started a while back. She looks the same as she did back in April and that was months after the issue was first identified.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/...t-getting-better-or-worse.99221/#post-1339482

And here is the other night.

 

[Oxylebius]

HLLE is not fatal at first, but the open soars on the fish can make it susceptible to infection. Some claim a reverse of the affects by feeding a diet full of vitamins, protein & algae. High quality food similar to what it would eat in the wild. You can buy algae and other foods and soak them in liquid vitamins like selcon.

There are a couple really good articles out from research that links carbon dust to HLLE. Two scientific studies have come to the same conclusion on what causes it:

• https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/activated-carbon-affirmed-as-causative-agent-for-hlle-disease
  
• https://www.advancedaquarist.com/bl...ted-in-inducing-head-and-lateral-line-erosion
  
• https://www.fishlore.com/activated-carbon-aquarium.htm

Published research paper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08997659.2011.608608

Another study: https://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/jay_hemdal/2009/02/hlle-survey.html

If you are using carbon, you will want to rinse it to get as much carbon dust off as possible. HLLE tends to affect the pores of tangs, angels, rabbitfish and a few other fish more then others.

 

[Paul B]

I wrote in my Log book in 1976 that i partially cured a French Angelfish of HLLE with vitamin A.

I don't think he was ever fully cured but I don't remember. I also had a hippo tang live with a severe case of it for 10 years. He was really ugly.

 

[Humblefish]

I've seen some pretty bad cases of HLLE greatly improved after food soaking Selcon + Zoecon on alternating days. It does take awhile though. And any other contributing factors (stray voltage & carbon dust) must be eliminated.

 

[Paul B]

Unfortunately HLLE is a condition of captivity. Wild fish don't get it. In the Long Island Aquarium near my home in I think one of the largest indoor reef tank in the country there is a hippo tang with HLLE.
It is not a disease but a condition with many "assumed" causes. I have my own theory as to what causes it but for now, it is a tough one.
Hello Humble.

 

[Oxylebius]

@Silverhawk how is the fish doing?