are my clowns infertile?

grahf

New Member
I have a true perc male and a black ice clown female pair. they have been together for a year now and they have laid 3x already. and these 3 lays, i only saw 3 eggs on the first batch and after a few hours, its gone and i only see white dots on the tile. the 2nd batch was laid a week after. this time, i never saw any egg but just white dots again on the pots. 2 weeks after ( today ), they laid again and still i dont see any eggs but just white patches on the pot again ( white patch probably is the thing that makes the egg stick but no eggs ). What seems to be the problem on this? are they still practicing since this is just their 3rd or something is terribly wrong like one clown is infertile?

My setup is made up of 12x 15 gallon tanks with 2 sumps consisting of a skimmer, lots of ceramic rings and filter wool. my nitrate is always zero and my phosphate is below 0.25 using API testkits. i use NSW and top off using RO. my salinity is 1.025. all tanks are bare-bottom and i suck the leftover food and waste 1-2x DAILY. i have currently 8 pairs in my setup and currently no pair are breeding. I feed them atleast 2x daily with hikari mysis + brine shrimp and ocean nutrition pellets formula 1 and sometimes diy feeds. i hope this is just normal for starter batches but i cannot see anybody having the same issue as me. they only have white eggs. mine dont even have eggs but only the white round dots in the pot where they should have laid.
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
I have no experience in clown breeding, but I believe that it may be a lack of experience, and clowns may eat their own eggs at first. Keep watching, and the clowns are eating properly and act normally?
 

grahf

New Member
yes they act normally. in fact, they are the ones that are more active than the rest of the pairs. some of them even lie down to 1 side of the aquarium and that is strange. still trying to figure out why hes doing that. i will post pics on my setup soon.

yes, i have seen a lot of expriences with the clowns eating their eggs on the first few batches. but this one is different. i dont even see eggs at all on the 2-3rd batches. im looking for answers but i dont see any exprience like this type. i hope theyre still just learning how to and not infertile.
 

grahf

New Member
by the way, i have tried the florida aqua farms gelly belly food mix recently.

problem is, most of them dont like it. i put very little of it and most of the clowns dont seem to like it and just tear them to small pieces and leave them. im not sure why. i even bought the raw materials of this food like krill meal, kelp meal, vitamins, minerals, spirulina powder and mixed them together myself to no avail too. all they usually eat is hikari brine shrimps. not even hikari mysis are always edible to them. yes i also sometimes feed them fish roe ( the ones we use for california maki sushi i think the roe is named ebiko ). but i dont want to use it often as they might stop eating the pellets or the other feeds just like if i feed live brines they wont eat other food anymore.
i have also tried doing my own recipe and the mix consists of beheaded shrimps with shell, shellfish, squid,salmon meat, egg roe, raw egg yolk, chicken heart- mixed them together and grounded until mushy then froze it. they also dont want to eat this often. i have no clue why.


so you think that this might just be a food issue not fertility issues? its so hard to feed them really i dont know why. it should be farely simple but im having a hard time for them to eat a lot.
 

BLADEYAMAHA

Well-Known Member
Well, just not sure of the compatibility of your clown species as a matter of fact. I don't however have any first hand experience and I'm not so sure breeders are willing to help since you are infringing on their way of earning money. :)
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
by the way, i have tried the florida aqua farms gelly belly food mix recently.

problem is, most of them dont like it. i put very little of it and most of the clowns dont seem to like it and just tear them to small pieces and leave them. im not sure why. i even bought the raw materials of this food like krill meal, kelp meal, vitamins, minerals, spirulina powder and mixed them together myself to no avail too. all they usually eat is hikari brine shrimps. not even hikari mysis are always edible to them. yes i also sometimes feed them fish roe ( the ones we use for california maki sushi i think the roe is named ebiko ). but i dont want to use it often as they might stop eating the pellets or the other feeds just like if i feed live brines they wont eat other food anymore.
i have also tried doing my own recipe and the mix consists of beheaded shrimps with shell, shellfish, squid,salmon meat, egg roe, raw egg yolk, chicken heart- mixed them together and grounded until mushy then froze it. they also dont want to eat this often. i have no clue why.


so you think that this might just be a food issue not fertility issues? its so hard to feed them really i dont know why. it should be farely simple but im having a hard time for them to eat a lot.
possibly eggbound. Does the female have a swollen stomach? Try pairing them with clownfish of the same gender so you have a sex change. It might help, or do you not want to break a mated pair?
 

grahf

New Member
the stomach is not that swollen but its a little bulked before laying eggs. im not sure if shes just full or theyre eggs. they were the same size when i paired them and now the other one is larger than the other. that will be my last resort, to break them but not yet. its already been 8 months and im willing to wait until middle next year. im still hoping that theyre just still too young to breed and trying already.
 

reefer gladness

Well-Known Member
Not a breeder but to my knowledge the black ice clowns are the result of cross breeding two different varieties of ocellaris. So you're trying to create a hybrid between an ocellaris cross-breed and a true percula.

Hybrids do occur in nature - rarely. And it's even more rare for that offspring to be fertile, a mule is a well known example as a hybrid between a horse and donkey that is almost always infertile. Again, I'm not a breeder but I don't think there's anything wrong other than possibly two incompatible species variants or possibly the black ice clowns are infertile as a result of cross breeding.

And I doubt the people who are creating these hybrids and selling them for obscene amounts of money are going to be willing to share their trade secrets.
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
the stomach is not that swollen but its a little bulked before laying eggs. im not sure if shes just full or theyre eggs. they were the same size when i paired them and now the other one is larger than the other. that will be my last resort, to break them but not yet. its already been 8 months and im willing to wait until middle next year. im still hoping that theyre just still too young to breed and trying already.

don't know....I would say you should keep them together... I know eggbinding is caused by a parasite, so it can be cured...I have a book by Martin Moe I'll check it out he has a section on clownfish breeding.
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
K here Moe says that eggbound may be caused by an encysted parasite and to "treat normally" (no treatment is mentioned) so I imagine either keep up a good, varied diet a stress free environment and time. If her stomach stays swollen, then possibly treat with copper, but that should be a last resort. Wait it out, and if she doesn't start laying, then I'd say break the pair and try to make a sex change.
 

grahf

New Member
thanks guys. but i doubt she has that egg bound disease. her stomach isnt bloated and she looks normal and are always happy looking. her stomach does get bloated only before trying to put up a nest and after eating but early morning her stomach is empty and after a few hours of eating. im going to post some pictures later on so you guys can see them. they always clean the pot before laying.
 

grahf

New Member
this is basically my setup:
P1090656.jpg


here is the pair thats been failing on hatches. they ate a lot a while ago and is doing normally and i dont see any bloated stomach anytime except after heavy feedings
P1090650.jpg

P1090649.jpg


these are some of the pairs that has not yet laid eggs

the female is a picasso and the male is a wild caught picasso clown
P1090651.jpg

P1090652.jpg


this pair are both wild caught. guess what they are. they look like percula cross african clowns to me
P1090655.jpg


misbarred onyx pair
P1090654.jpg
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
this is basically my setup:
P1090656.jpg


here is the pair thats been failing on hatches. they ate a lot a while ago and is doing normally and i dont see any bloated stomach anytime except after heavy feedings
P1090650.jpg

P1090649.jpg


these are some of the pairs that has not yet laid eggs

the female is a picasso and the male is a wild caught picasso clown
P1090651.jpg

P1090652.jpg


this pair are both wild caught. guess what they are. they look like percula cross african clowns to me
P1090655.jpg


misbarred onyx pair
P1090654.jpg
awesome setup, I can see why you're frustrated with the clowns. i have NO clue about species of clowns and breeding specifics, only enough from what I've read. Have you successfully raised any clowns and sold them?
 

grahf

New Member
commercial purposes, not yet. but i have raised some babies ( around 20% survival only ) up to 1.5 months then suddenly they all died. that was 2 years ago. now, i have around 25 babies that are around 20 days. theyre all doing good and hopefully nobody dies. i expected that the babies were wiped out before because of lack of nutrients.

anyways, yeah as you can see i keep my tanks very clean at all times. maybe even too clean. i just hope that this is just a matter of time before they spawn. so nobody knows what my pair has done? tried to lay eggs but no eggs only those white stuff in the pot?
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
commercial purposes, not yet. but i have raised some babies ( around 20% survival only ) up to 1.5 months then suddenly they all died. that was 2 years ago. now, i have around 25 babies that are around 20 days. theyre all doing good and hopefully nobody dies. i expected that the babies were wiped out before because of lack of nutrients.

anyways, yeah as you can see i keep my tanks very clean at all times. maybe even too clean. i just hope that this is just a matter of time before they spawn. so nobody knows what my pair has done? tried to lay eggs but no eggs only those white stuff in the pot?
Can you get a picture of the white stuff? is it like a mat or bubbles? Because I don't know if they use a type of adhesive to put down their eggs, which might be what the white stuff is. About "too" clean, I think you mean you still have beneficial bacteria. I'm not sure what your clowns are doing, but if it doesn't work out, try separating them and keeping them with a mixed group of males and females and try to initiate a gender change. That's the best I can offer, unless the clowns ARE sick. I think a gender change is your best bet.
 

grahf

New Member
the white stuff that i saw from previous spawns are gone. theyre always cleaning the pot. the white stuff is like the adhesive they use for the eggs to stick on the pot. ill take a picture when they lay those again.

right now, ive changed their diet and hopefully theyre eating more and hope for eggs next lay. I have put seachem carbon on my system hope it does something. yes, gender changing will be my last resort but im not going to do that yet. most of the clowns are still sub adults and would need more time to mature. i just hope this pair is also still practicing. will update again if something new happens. thanks!
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
this pair is still juvenile? I guess you're doing everything right, aren't there foods that supposedly make the eggs stronger or better somehow? I don't think that would help given your situation, but hey it's worth a shot.
 

grahf

New Member
yes shrimp tails make their egg cases stronger. but i already feed them mysis + brine shrimps everyday. now i added ebiko eggs daily instead of 2-3x a week. they love that stuff. im just guessing theyre sub adults so hopefully theyre just trying to practice how to breed and eventually will be able to do it after a few more tries. im so frustrated because i have a friend whos got a sucky set-up but his cross pair between a picasso clown and a black clown is laying every 10 days and mine is a better setup and i have around 8 pairs that not even a single breeds!
 

lbiminiblue

Well-Known Member
yes shrimp tails make their egg cases stronger. but i already feed them mysis + brine shrimps everyday. now i added ebiko eggs daily instead of 2-3x a week. they love that stuff. im just guessing theyre sub adults so hopefully theyre just trying to practice how to breed and eventually will be able to do it after a few more tries. im so frustrated because i have a friend whos got a sucky set-up but his cross pair between a picasso clown and a black clown is laying every 10 days and mine is a better setup and i have around 8 pairs that not even a single breeds!

wait do the other 8 lay at all and have the same white stuff problem? And are the brine shrimp you feed them gut loaded or just born with an egg sack?
 

grahf

New Member
nope! none of the 8 pairs laid eggs for the last 8 months. another fact is that 1 pair i have on that particular setup laid 2x on another tank that is dirty. I saw eggs that time. After i have transfered them here on this nice setup, they never laid eggs. they were eating more on the dirty old setup. it hurts me to not know what im doing wrong. i do clean their tanks everyday to syphon every leftover food and waste because tanks are bare bottom.
 
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