Apex system - what exactly can you do with it?

[SPR]

I set up my Red Sea Max S 650 in June 2016 and am now looking at maybe setting the Apex system up but I am new to the hobby and just wondered exactly what you can do with it ?

I have the following:

Main pump
C Skim 1800
HYdra 26 LEDs
Kamoer 4 channel dosing pump
UVC steriliser
Heaters and other standard pumps in Max S

I appreciate it monitors salinity, temperature etc

For example can it tell me if my main pump fails and if so how?

Can it tell me if my auto top off has failed and the water in the sump is therefore below a certain safe level for the return pump- again if so how?

I am not sure exactly what it's capable off and what add on I would need

Just wondered exactly what you think of it and how you use it so any help greatly appreciated

 

[DaveK]

Many people would not want to run a system with out a controller. I feel quite a bit different about them. I have posted this before, but it's worth reposting.

DaveK's Standard Lecture #5 - Controllers

Controllers are at best an optional item. They can do a lot of nice things, but you don't really need one to have a fantastic reef. There are many things you can do with a controller that can be done just as well with a timer or two or a float switch.

Before even considering a controller, make sure the rest of your system is up to par. There is no point investing in a controller if your lighting, or filtration is substandard. Many people would get much better results upgrading something else in their system compared to adding a controller.

Just like lighting and filtration, controllers have parts that need periodic replacement. Expect to replace pH and/or ORP probes about every 12 - 18 months, and you need the stuff to recalibrate them too.

Also, with a controller, a lot of your equipment is operated by the controller. This represents a single point of failure for everything connected to it. I recommend that you do not connect your main critical pump to a controller.

Lastly, when your dealing with any products that use software and/or firmware, don't compare any of the features that are "in the latest version" many of them will not work or work marginally at best. It almost always takes a company about 3 versions of a product, software, or firmware to get it right.

I've found the best feature of a controller is that it can monitor things like pH, ORP, O2, temp, and so on long term. This lets you see if your system is doing better or worse over a period of time. It also lets you spot some problems while they are minor and easy to fix.

To answer your specific questions -

Controllers are generally good at operating another device, and monitoring conditions in a tank. Most could not directly tell you if the main pump failed or if an ATO failed. If you add the necessary probes or sensors you could detect the low water flow through a pump or the eater level too low or high in a sump. You'd be able to tell that something was wrong indirectly.

However, how many sensors and probes do you wish to add to monitor everything? That could get expensive fast. Plus, you'd need to maintain all of them.

 

[SPR]

Thanks Dave

I am mainly looking to monitor basic things such as main pump or ATO failure as I don't want to get it all too complicated. It comes as standard with temperature etc

I believe there is a new current sensor which would detect main pump failure for example.

All of this is because I am away a lot and for my sanity I need to know all is ok.

 

[DaveK]

Monitoring a pump can can be a little tricky. Most of the time a pump fails, it's because it's not getting power. If that's the case, a controller isn't going to be getting power either. Of course, you could get around this with backup power, but even that has it's limits.

Since your away a lot, I suggest that you have redundant systems to back each other up. This doesn't solve all your problems, but it will greatly reduce your chances of failure.

For example, it's easy enough to have two ATOs using different water supplies. That way if one fails, the other is still there. For pumps, you can use two smaller pumps, or have circulation pumps in the tank. This is what I do on my reef system. I also have the pumps on different circuit breakers.

For actually monitoring the tank, I would depend on pH and ORP, two factors that can be easily monitored by most controllers beyond the most basic ones. pH and ORP will vary during the day, but if they shift a lot, it usually indicates a problem. A big drop in ORP can often mean that something has died in the tank, or the filtration system isn't working.

Monitoring for floods from the tank would also be a good idea. It also might be worth investing in a web cam that connects to net, so you can view the system while away. That will let you pick up things that other monitoring will not, such as an algae outbreak.

 

[SPR]

Mhmm. I think there David you tempted my fate!

So typically whilst talking automation and redundancy one of my ATO float switches switched to 'On' yesterday during the day and stayed 'On' and dumped some water and then did it again later and I actually caught it so saw what it was doing. I thought it was one of my triggers making a mess splashing!

It has a second float that's supposed to protect the small pump if it runs dry so having averted floods I have added this inverted to the other float valve so if one fails and stays On the other hopefully will switch off and stop pumping. The second failsafe float valve is above the first one so should turn off the pump if the first one fails and the water level reaches the second. Well in theory anyway!

I don't know what happened as both floats are working so may have got stuck.

So can anybody recommend best ATO with failsafe? Oh and that will top off the rear tank of a Red Sea Max S series?!

 

[SPR]

I'm thinking Tunze Osmalator...?

And maybe bypass the tanks own system and use the inbuilt as a backup in case of Tunze failure

 

[DaveK]

The Tunze Osmolator works quite well. I use one on my system.

There are a couple of things to be aware of.

The unit had a number of built in safeguards to prevent floods, and adding too much water. The unit will turn the pump off if it's been running for more that about 10 min. This prevents the pump from running dry.

The unit will also shut off if the fail safe float switch is activated. This is to prevent floods.

In either case, the alarm will sound and you can take action. You usually need to unplug the power to the unit and plug it back in again to reset it. This is actually a good thing.

I find the cleaning my overflow will sometimes allow a lot more water to flow, and the sump fill up enough to trigger the fail safe float switch. This became a nuisance, so I switched the jumper inside the unit so that the alarm doesn't sound. It's a trade off. The float switch still shuts the unit off, but no alarm sounds.

 

[skyjacker07]

They offer add ons to allow for things like the ato, and the pump. The newer version of the apex they have built sensors into connections for your sump piping, if the flow decreases or stops it'll send an alarm to you. There is built in to any of the apex to send an alarm that you can setup if something or everything looses power it cans send you an alert. These alerts you have to configure but it can send both text and email alerts for failures if you're not home. Apex can also send an audible alarm if you're home and something like that happens. As to some of the other comments there is also leak detector add ons you put sensors wherever you'd like and if it senses any water you can have alarms, or set it to power things off. It can control dosing, ato's, lights, also power heads, pumps. Many more implications that I'm still learning of myself.

 

[SPR]

I think I'm going to get one in the next month or so and just start with the basic system monitoring and see how I get on with it.

The system in the U.K is around £819 for the 2016 model so might wait a few weeks for the Christmas sales and see what happens!

Infact I have just checked and the current ones for sale in the U.K don't have the new EB8 energy bar so I had best wait anyway and do a bit more research in meantime

 

[DaveK]

That's the best way to do things. A controller is an expensive investment, do just get what you need when you need it. You can always add on to it later.

 

[SPR]

I started this thread last year and am still awaiting the new energy bar (UK version) to which I’m told will be around Christmas 2017.

Having had near a years more experience in the hobby and my system, I’m actually still pondering wether to install Apex or not. I’m not bothered about the cost, I’m more concerned about creating what might be a single point of failure if I plug everything into it and it fails at some point.

Just to give you a picture of what I have:

2016 Red Sea Max S 650 (self contained system)
Camera - separate WiFi HD camera pointing at tank / sump
Hydra 26 LED’s - all controlled by themselves no need for Apex
Kamoer 4 channel doser - all controlled itself and no need for Apex
ATO - Tunze Osmolator -again self controlled
Heaters - 2 heaters with own thermostats and then controlled as well be temp controller
Feeding - I never need to turn anything off other than skimmer when feeding coral food (reef energy) due to the type of tank I have

Also I’m around the tank much of the time apart from regular weeks away when I have someone check it every day for feeding. Mainly my wife as I go golfing regularly!

I’ve re read some of the above and what appears a very good idea is not to install the main pump into apex in case apex failed. This was one of my main reasons for getting the system, but clearly as the main pump is on virtually all of the time, why should I introduce an additional potential point of failure.

The main reason I think I would get Apex is for the monitoring of the various parameters such as salinity, temperature etc from anywhere in the world and this alone would probably be worth it for the piece of mind. And also the recording of test results although I have a very nice basic excel spread sheet that does this and also documents maintenance dates on pumps etc.

I think what I may end up doing is getting Apex and initially just using it for monitoring salinity etc and basic control functions, so in my Max S this would mean leaving the main power centre in place with the main pump and connect Apex to a separate power socket to monitor and do whatever else I want it to do.

Also what happens if the Apex ‘brain’ fails - does it all shutdown including the power bar ? I’m sure probably not but...

I’m sure once I’ve got it I’ll wonder how I managed without it and it’s something to fiddle with rather than the tank....

 

[DaveK]

Since it's been a year now, the market could have many newer products available. Before you buy, do another evaluation of the available controllers and see if there is something better for your needs.

 

[SPR]

Since it's been a year now, the market could have many newer products available. Before you buy, do another evaluation of the available controllers and see if there is something better for your needs.

Certainly in the UK Apex seems to be the main one that everyone stocks with all the accessories. There is one called Seneye Reef but it doesn’t monitor salinity and has a monthly cost. And there are a few others that come in different modules but Apex is the complete package with alerts.

I’ve also seen Mindstream which in theory looks very interesting but it will be a while before it’s out I think, certainly on our side of the Atlantic!

I can see the tank with my camera, but I can’t see the parameters and hence the constant monitoring Apex provides is very attractive.

 

[emvanburen]

Shaun,
The new APEX has power monitoring so that if you have a pump "fail", you will see a change in power consumption. That comes with.

Also, if the APEX dies, the outlets "fall back" to a default condition, which for my pumps is "on".

Of course there can be a total APEX failure or a power bar failure.

All the parameter monitoring is nice. APEX fusion is fantastic and lets you keep notes too and schedule maintenance activities (I love this - it is keeping me very anal!)

Our lights won't work with APEX - too bad - but the app is good enough - and that saves 4 outlets!

I run 2 heaters - I set the thermostats a degree or so above my desired temp so they stay on and then use the APEX to regulate power to them. I have a small fan in the sump that turns on when the tank gets warm.

As I said in another post, I use level alarms and cabinet door switches. I have it set up so that via an APEX switch, I can a slug of salt water to slowly raise salinity. Obviously this requires plumbing to a supply of salt water...

I have a skimmer container full alert that shuts off my skimmer. This has been used A LOT.

I have a skimmer neck cleaner that the APEX drives once a day.

My initial plan was to NOT go crazy and become a control freak again, but the new version of APEX with Fusion made that silly.

If you have several power bars, you can arrange things so that power comes from different circuits and power to any one of them will keep the APEX computer running.

APEX has a heartbeat function that if it loses power totally and doesn't check in with the server, will have the server alert you. Another great feature.

The shockingly expensive 2 channel DOS pump makes up for its high cost with mobile configuration. I can do my water tests and update dosing from the kitchen...one task that doesn't require crawling under the tank...

Sorry for the unpaid advert. As you can tell I am a fan.

But - downside is that whenever anything fails (which you have to plan for), you have to rip an internal organ out of your tank and send it to Neptune. I really wish they would ship a replacement out FIRST but alas, no go.

The list of things you can do with this tool is insane and borders on ridiculous. That said, it does the basics really well out of the box.

 

[SPR]

Thanks for the very detailed reply on this.

I think I’m going to get it ‘shortly’ as I need to have the control/monitoring for piece of mind, although I might leave some things like the main return pump/lights/rear circulation pumps plugged into the power centre on their own as they should pretty much be on permanently apart from main pump with water change.

How did you wire up the skimmer cut off, that sounds very handy for when the NYOS decides to freak out for only reasons know to itself !? Float switch or something ?

And what’s the skimmer neck cleaner you have, in the NYOS? I need one!

There are a couple of accessories like the breakout box which I assume I’ll need for the light switches (or do I need this with the new 2016 apex?) and leak detection modules/sensors again for piece of mind although I don’t know what I’ll do if it leaks when Im away.......

 

[emvanburen]

I got an aquadriver 160 neck cleaner. It is shockingly pricey but I’ve been happy with it.

I got the apex fluid monitoring module and plugged in a surface leak detector for the floor under the stand and three optical level sensors - waste cup, high sump (mounted in the hole where the ato float was) and low sump (mounted to a magnet mount I had).

My skimmer drains to a waste cup and I put the sensor in the top of the waste cup. It works great!


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[SPR]

I got an aquadriver 160 neck cleaner. It is shockingly pricey but I’ve been happy with it.

I got the apex fluid monitoring module and plugged in a surface leak detector for the floor under the stand and three optical level sensors - waste cup, high sump (mounted in the hole where the ato float was) and low sump (mounted to a magnet mount I had).

My skimmer drains to a waste cup and I put the sensor in the top of the waste cup. It works great!


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Ok I’m sold and can’t wait any longer!!! I must have it now! Lol

The Christmas delivery stuff Is all runners and worst case I’ll just buy the new energy bar when it’s available separately.

I wont hold you to this but I’m about to order the following, any thoughts on if I don’t/need something else for basic set up?

Apex WiFi 2016
Advanced leak protection module and 1 x low profile detector (to start with)
Breakout box to add float switches eventually

 

[emvanburen]

If you want to use optical sensors the fluid monitoring module base is really flexible - will take optical sensors, leak sensors, flow sensors, solenoids.


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[emvanburen]

So the fmm is more versatile.


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