A discussion on Immunity
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
Squatch XXL
Well-Known Member
I have to come back to this thread to ask questions of the experienced.
I recently have come to the conclusion that the Local Fish Store has supplied me with not ONE, but TWO very hard to get rid of infestations:
Botrylloides, AND Zoa eating Nudibranch.
After a long conversation with them about their issue now being mine, I was advised that these infestations are a direct result of tank raised livestock not having any natural predators.
Which is where the hair on the back of my neck rose up...and that hasn't happened that bad since I jammed the fork into the wall outlet when I was 3.
He said that they "have zoa eating nudi from time to time" and that "botrylloides are hard to get rid of".
At that point I went over the fact that It took me weeks to ascertain that I had a colonial sea squirt....and that they are choking out my palys. (I know that IF he knows what they are, he knows of them, and possibly has them at all times in his ONE large frag tank at least)
I also talked about Nudibranch eggs being immune to all reef dips, and that IF they have them from "time to time" as he indicates it is only superficial and that simply put THEY Have them all the time, irrelevant if they see them or not. I kept my cool throughout the conversation, and told him that the only reason I called was to warn him that others with larger and more established tanks will be less friendly than I am.
So my question for PaulB...
Does the logic make sense? Is a tank raised coral more or less prone to these type of infestations, or is it simply a horrible situation that they will never get out of short of q-tanking entire species?....
Personally I got the idea it was a "pass-the-buck/defer blame" type of conversation.
My question for the Admins....
Also, knowing the MASSIVE size of this retailer (In Lancaster PA USA) is there an acceptable place that I can name them to possibly warn others? They seem well aware and a-ok with the idea that they have bad hitchhikers.....I can only imagine that they have other HH as well at this point. They used to be top notch, and now I feel that even (Insert chain pet store name) does a better job (all of them). I will never EVER buy livestock from them again. Period.
My q tank setup over the last weekend cost as much as or more the corals I am attempting to save...I guarantee that I will be losing corals over the cycle of dips....All in all I am looking at a few hundred dollars of hardware to save a few hundred dollars of corals.....some of which won't make it.
I recently have come to the conclusion that the Local Fish Store has supplied me with not ONE, but TWO very hard to get rid of infestations:
Botrylloides, AND Zoa eating Nudibranch.
After a long conversation with them about their issue now being mine, I was advised that these infestations are a direct result of tank raised livestock not having any natural predators.
Which is where the hair on the back of my neck rose up...and that hasn't happened that bad since I jammed the fork into the wall outlet when I was 3.
He said that they "have zoa eating nudi from time to time" and that "botrylloides are hard to get rid of".
At that point I went over the fact that It took me weeks to ascertain that I had a colonial sea squirt....and that they are choking out my palys. (I know that IF he knows what they are, he knows of them, and possibly has them at all times in his ONE large frag tank at least)
I also talked about Nudibranch eggs being immune to all reef dips, and that IF they have them from "time to time" as he indicates it is only superficial and that simply put THEY Have them all the time, irrelevant if they see them or not. I kept my cool throughout the conversation, and told him that the only reason I called was to warn him that others with larger and more established tanks will be less friendly than I am.
So my question for PaulB...
Does the logic make sense? Is a tank raised coral more or less prone to these type of infestations, or is it simply a horrible situation that they will never get out of short of q-tanking entire species?....
Personally I got the idea it was a "pass-the-buck/defer blame" type of conversation.
My question for the Admins....
Also, knowing the MASSIVE size of this retailer (In Lancaster PA USA) is there an acceptable place that I can name them to possibly warn others? They seem well aware and a-ok with the idea that they have bad hitchhikers.....I can only imagine that they have other HH as well at this point. They used to be top notch, and now I feel that even (Insert chain pet store name) does a better job (all of them). I will never EVER buy livestock from them again. Period.
My q tank setup over the last weekend cost as much as or more the corals I am attempting to save...I guarantee that I will be losing corals over the cycle of dips....All in all I am looking at a few hundred dollars of hardware to save a few hundred dollars of corals.....some of which won't make it.
^
RS does have a subforum for Vendor/Seller Feedback - just note Travis's (the owner of RS) reminder...
Please remember to post positive as well as negative experiences. Also, no flaming or attacks will be allowed. Also, Please make every attempt possible to solve disputes via email or phone calls!
If you take a look through this forum & it's post... you will get a good idea of what has been deemed in guidelines with the above...
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?forums/vendor-seller-feedback.59/
Hope this helps
PS - I Googled "Lancaster PA US fish corals store" so I could see the store
A discussion on Immunity
Last edited:
Paul B
Well-Known Member
Quote:
So my question for PaulB...
Does the logic make sense? Is a tank raised coral more or less prone to these type of infestations, or is it simply a horrible situation that they will never get out of short of q-tanking entire species?....
Personally I got the idea it was a "pass-the-buck/defer blame" type of conversation.
I don't think I can answer that. In the sea hitchhikers would be transient creatures that would stay a while, then leave for more lucrative pastures. During that time I would assume anything that eats that pest "may" eat it. It would also be true that in a tank, the pest would not have any enemies so that creature would stay put until you physically removed it or it starved to death which I am going to say is what normally happens in a tank. If it did not, we would have tanks full of coral eating pests as I am sure we get many as tiny planaria or babies and would not notice them. I personally have never had a problem with them, or any other pest that I can remember.
So my question for PaulB...
Does the logic make sense? Is a tank raised coral more or less prone to these type of infestations, or is it simply a horrible situation that they will never get out of short of q-tanking entire species?....
Personally I got the idea it was a "pass-the-buck/defer blame" type of conversation.
I don't think I can answer that. In the sea hitchhikers would be transient creatures that would stay a while, then leave for more lucrative pastures. During that time I would assume anything that eats that pest "may" eat it. It would also be true that in a tank, the pest would not have any enemies so that creature would stay put until you physically removed it or it starved to death which I am going to say is what normally happens in a tank. If it did not, we would have tanks full of coral eating pests as I am sure we get many as tiny planaria or babies and would not notice them. I personally have never had a problem with them, or any other pest that I can remember.
Squatch XXL
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the expert look-over of my ramblings. I didn't know how off topic this was, but it seemed to coincide with what you were saying about fish and their immunity based on conditions. Their "expert" makes it sound very similar to what you propose about fish...
Tommorrow or Thursday I have a 6 line wrasse coming in to help out in the DT....I certainly have too many amphipods....Pray to the glass tank gods that this fish eats nudis and pods.
As for you never having a problem with hitchhikers, I never did either. However if you would like to give it a try, Ill gladly send you a frag that is guaranteed to have eggs....I know I have been having loads of fun with it. (Not really.)
But seriously THANK YOU again for your sharing your years of knowledge and experience.
Paul B
Well-Known Member
Getting back to immunity, I am not sure if I mentioned this (more than 8 times) but when I was 20 I was stationed in Viet Nam. Not in Saigon or some other relatively clean place, but the jungle. Just like Tarzan movies but without Jane although I am not sure if any of the numerous of monkeys were named Jane. If you don't know anything about a jungle I will tell you. In the rainy season, when it is not raining, it is raining harder. In the (very short) dry season, everything is covered in red dust. Especially when a helicopter lands near you which happens maybe 5 times an hour and you are covered in sweat because it rarely gets below 95 degrees (not that I had a thermometer or anything else) and you spend your "free" time filling sand bags, (and swatting bugs or shooting snakes,) you look just like Sasquatch because red dust is caked all over you. So you go and take a " shower." Oh, but wait, you have no water, or shower, or anything that resembles a shower (unless it is the rainy season and you are up to your waist in it, and leaches) so you wait to take a shower. You wait for the day you leave the country which happens after a year. We didn't have a few things you normally have in civilization. Things like a roof, walls, floors, tent, electricity, plumbing, water (unless it is raining) bed, real food (we ate C-Rations) or underwear. That is correct, they didn't give us underwear, they didn't give us that because when it remains wet for a year, it rots. Why am I saying all this? No, I don't want you to join the Army, but it would be a noble thing to do and I am sure the conditions are now better. I am telling you this to show that the human immune system is a fantastic innovation, especially when it is allowed to do it's job. People now walk around with that silly bottle of hand sanitizer, and do you know who are the people who are always sick? Correct, the people with the hand sanitizer. Our bodies were built to handle dirt, bacteria and viruses. Go to any Natural History Museum and look at Primitive Man. See if you notice any of them holding hand sanitizer. In most museums, you won't see that. Cave men were well equipped to handle germs and the occasional Woolly Mammoth tusk stuck in their arm pit. I spent an entire year in that jungle and never got sick. I slept in the mud every night (when you had time to sleep) I never washed my hands, as the little "clean" water you had was for drinking. That "clean" water came from a river. When we ate, which was any time we were hungry and we had C-rations, helicopters would land, covering our food with dirt. It didn't matter and made the C-Rations taste a little better. If we were going to stay at that LZ (clearing in the jungle) for more than a few days the helicopters sometimes sprayed the surrounding vegetation (and us) with bug killer (probably DDT) and Agent Orange. When we found ourselves in water, which happened quite often we burned leeches off ourselves with cigarettes that came free in our C-Rations (which by the way were put in the can before I was born)
While in Viet Nam, I never got sick, nothing. Not a cold, Fly, headache, rash, food poisoning, ich, nothing. Why was that? It was because my immune system was up to the task. Before going to a place like that they gave us shots for plague, parrot fever, jungle fever and a number of things I can't spell. That is because we Americans have never been exposed to those things and our immune system was not prepared. The local people there had no shots and they looked mighty healthy to me. For the rest of the illnesses like colds, flu, sore throat etc, I never got that because before going to Nam, my basic training was conducted in mud which built up my bodies defenses.
We in this hobby need to change our thinking about keeping fish healthy. Sterility, long quarantining, antibiotics and siphoning the sand bed is not the answer. Strengthening the fishes immune system "is" the answer and the only answer if you want to keep your fish alive and healthy in a natural way where they are immune from everything except a broken heater or a Supermodel with a bottle of copper and no test kit.
This is a "friend" I met there. He ate rats which were like ants here. They were all over everything. When we were, shall we say, "in the bathroom". (Which had no bath and wasn't a room) we would take M-16 rounds, remove the projectile and fill it with soap to shoot them while they tried to climb up on our feet. This way, we didn't blow off our feet.
While in Viet Nam, I never got sick, nothing. Not a cold, Fly, headache, rash, food poisoning, ich, nothing. Why was that? It was because my immune system was up to the task. Before going to a place like that they gave us shots for plague, parrot fever, jungle fever and a number of things I can't spell. That is because we Americans have never been exposed to those things and our immune system was not prepared. The local people there had no shots and they looked mighty healthy to me. For the rest of the illnesses like colds, flu, sore throat etc, I never got that because before going to Nam, my basic training was conducted in mud which built up my bodies defenses.
We in this hobby need to change our thinking about keeping fish healthy. Sterility, long quarantining, antibiotics and siphoning the sand bed is not the answer. Strengthening the fishes immune system "is" the answer and the only answer if you want to keep your fish alive and healthy in a natural way where they are immune from everything except a broken heater or a Supermodel with a bottle of copper and no test kit.
This is a "friend" I met there. He ate rats which were like ants here. They were all over everything. When we were, shall we say, "in the bathroom". (Which had no bath and wasn't a room) we would take M-16 rounds, remove the projectile and fill it with soap to shoot them while they tried to climb up on our feet. This way, we didn't blow off our feet.
Squatch XXL
Well-Known Member
I love hearing war stories from Vietnam. Not all are pretty, but it is a war that was shuffled over here in america. I dated a girl back in the day whos father operated the machine gun. The few photos of him with the gun over his shoulders really let me know that his daughter was off limits (She was a hussy). Paul, thanks again for the insight. Only you can take a topic of reef keeping and correlate it to the Vietnam war AND make it fun to read as well.
Paul B
Well-Known Member
Squatch, I tried not to make that about the war. I wanted to emphasize the immunity aspects of being in a very dirty, unsanitary place. Most members here are to young to remember the war and many people would not believe it anyway. Today's warriors look much cleaner than we did and hopefully the living conditions and food is better, but I really don't know.
Paul B
Well-Known Member
A little more on immunity if anyone is interested. This stuff fascinates me almost as much as Supermodels.
A fishes epidermis consists of, besides other things, various types of unicellular glands some of which are goblet or mucous (slime) glands. These glands secrete slime. (other parts of fish also produce slime) Slime is a major part of the fishes immune system.
Besides secreting slime, the epidermis produces keratocytes. These motile keratocytes can cover the surface of a wound in hours after it's formation adding bacterial resistance to the wound and helping new cells to grow. This is the reason fish appendages, such as fins can re- grow.
Skin mucus evolved to trap and immobilize most bacteria and pathogens including parasites. This mucus is constantly shed, eliminating most pathogens and is immediately replaced.
The thickness of the slime is regulated in part by the stressers put on the animal such as temperature or stress. Copper, that we often use to treat fish would also cause the fish to produce more mucus there by helping the fish to eliminate the pest as well as to help kill it.
Interestingly a different type of mucus is produced for several days after a fish is stressed composed of a gel like material. It is unknown weather this gel has the same antibacterial and anti parasitic properties of the normal slime. This last statement has not been qualified on "all" types of fish as it has not been tested but it is interesting to me because I believe quarantining fish in a small tank would elicit this response making the fish more susceptical to infection. This is only a thought on my part and not something I discovered through research.
There are many more ways a fish has immunity to pathogens but they all have one thing in common. They require energy in the form of food. I know I have said it numerous times, but almost none of our fish are fed enough or correctly which is the reason for so many disease threads. With all the help fish get from their vast, complicated immune system, they should never get sick. If they do, it is our fault, not the store, not the wholesaler and not the fish.
We supply the living conditions, the stress and the food and most of us are not very good at it. Fish in our care should live out their normal lives, disease free and they should also be producing eggs, and if they are in the proper tank, spawning.
If our fish are not spawning, their immune system is not functioning and they are susceptible to all sorts of infections.
Feeding fish correctly is easy as I have mentioned many times. We have an obligation to keep these creatures in the state of health that they were living in, in the sea.
Just my opinion of course.
Reference:
ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470
Review Article
An Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish Skin
María Ángeles Esteban
A fishes epidermis consists of, besides other things, various types of unicellular glands some of which are goblet or mucous (slime) glands. These glands secrete slime. (other parts of fish also produce slime) Slime is a major part of the fishes immune system.
Besides secreting slime, the epidermis produces keratocytes. These motile keratocytes can cover the surface of a wound in hours after it's formation adding bacterial resistance to the wound and helping new cells to grow. This is the reason fish appendages, such as fins can re- grow.
Skin mucus evolved to trap and immobilize most bacteria and pathogens including parasites. This mucus is constantly shed, eliminating most pathogens and is immediately replaced.
The thickness of the slime is regulated in part by the stressers put on the animal such as temperature or stress. Copper, that we often use to treat fish would also cause the fish to produce more mucus there by helping the fish to eliminate the pest as well as to help kill it.
Interestingly a different type of mucus is produced for several days after a fish is stressed composed of a gel like material. It is unknown weather this gel has the same antibacterial and anti parasitic properties of the normal slime. This last statement has not been qualified on "all" types of fish as it has not been tested but it is interesting to me because I believe quarantining fish in a small tank would elicit this response making the fish more susceptical to infection. This is only a thought on my part and not something I discovered through research.
There are many more ways a fish has immunity to pathogens but they all have one thing in common. They require energy in the form of food. I know I have said it numerous times, but almost none of our fish are fed enough or correctly which is the reason for so many disease threads. With all the help fish get from their vast, complicated immune system, they should never get sick. If they do, it is our fault, not the store, not the wholesaler and not the fish.
We supply the living conditions, the stress and the food and most of us are not very good at it. Fish in our care should live out their normal lives, disease free and they should also be producing eggs, and if they are in the proper tank, spawning.
If our fish are not spawning, their immune system is not functioning and they are susceptible to all sorts of infections.
Feeding fish correctly is easy as I have mentioned many times. We have an obligation to keep these creatures in the state of health that they were living in, in the sea.
Just my opinion of course.
Reference:
ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470
Review Article
An Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish Skin
María Ángeles Esteban
mtsully71
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread and theory. Now, as any in depth discussion is well above my pay grade Paul, I do subscribe to your thoughts and ideas on this topic. After dealing with an issue post #135 @mtsully71. I applied some of the principles/ideas you discuss above and at this time have had success. I do not posses the knowledge or skills of many on this forum. But, I do buy in into the concept in regards to immunity in fish.
good reading Paul
thanks
good reading Paul
thanks
Always enjoy the reads !
rostervandross
Active Member
I read through this for the first time last night and thank you for sharing the thoughts.
As a relatively new saltwater fish keeper from freshwater there is a sort of process i have gone through where at first you wonder what is necessary and important. At first I was skeptical of a lot of things and ended up with too many nutrients, lost my first couple corals, etc. But now I am finding that just going with the general consensus on everything is equally close minded. Thanks for offering a fresh perspective and more importantly, a reminder to think about what you are being told to do and consider other options.
Paul, does your book go over raising your choice live foods? I am interested in starting.
As a relatively new saltwater fish keeper from freshwater there is a sort of process i have gone through where at first you wonder what is necessary and important. At first I was skeptical of a lot of things and ended up with too many nutrients, lost my first couple corals, etc. But now I am finding that just going with the general consensus on everything is equally close minded. Thanks for offering a fresh perspective and more importantly, a reminder to think about what you are being told to do and consider other options.
Paul, does your book go over raising your choice live foods? I am interested in starting.
Paul B
Well-Known Member
I needed some place to write, so I will write here. Discussing immunity got me thinking about how immunity affects overall fish health. When fish are immune (As they should always be) they are also in the best health they will ever be in and will also spawn (if you have a pair of course and we are not talking about manta rays) A fish in that condition is vibrant with not even one scale out of place or a ripped fin. Injured fish in that condition heal very quickly with help from their slime which is a living thing, sort of like the "Blob". If you don't know what the Blob is, you are very young. Immune fish also exhibit no fear, rarely hide and eat with Gusto, or Harry, Bill and Jane, depending who is there.
I read many times that someone has a fish and it doesn't eat. All fish eat but some of them are in a tank where the general health is not the best and the fish refuses to eat preferring to croak rather than live there. Immune fish also live out their life disease free and will only die from 2 things, jumping out or old age. Fish can live surprisingly long lives with many of them approaching 30 years old. (but the majority of small fish will only live about 15 years)
I think I discussed ways to get fish into that condition on here someplace and it does take a little work. Feeding things like clams, live worms and hatching brine shrimp does take more time than throwing some flakes and pellets in the water. But then again, how does that work out?
I read many times that someone has a fish and it doesn't eat. All fish eat but some of them are in a tank where the general health is not the best and the fish refuses to eat preferring to croak rather than live there. Immune fish also live out their life disease free and will only die from 2 things, jumping out or old age. Fish can live surprisingly long lives with many of them approaching 30 years old. (but the majority of small fish will only live about 15 years)
I think I discussed ways to get fish into that condition on here someplace and it does take a little work. Feeding things like clams, live worms and hatching brine shrimp does take more time than throwing some flakes and pellets in the water. But then again, how does that work out?
Paul B
Well-Known Member
There was a Doctor on TV this week who must have read this thread (yeah right) because he was talking about eating dirt to enhance your immunity and why so many people get sick now. Of course I related this to fish.
I read everything this man wrote then googled "Eat Dirt" and found a wealth of information on why eating dirt is good for you. No, don't go out and eat dirt, read the article first. But what he says and what I read on a few more places on the subject.
Also this from the American Medical Association a couple of months ago:
“Countless studies have found children who spend recess time in a green environment, rather than on cement or blacktop, perform better on tests in the classroom, have reduced symptoms of ADHD and stress, and lower risk of obesity,” she says. “They’re also more likely to have perfect vision than those who spend most of their time indoors.”
- See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf
There are data that say our immune system and bodies in general, function best when exposed to not only microbes, or organisms, but also to diversity too. That has to come not only from a diverse diet, but also the environment. Quite simply, our kids need to go out and play in the dirt.
For example, regular use of bleach is associated with more – not fewer – infections in kids, according to a 2015 study published in Occupational & Environmental Medicine. “Children aren’t as healthy as they once were or as they could be,” she says. “I’ve observed more incidences of chronic illness and health issues like allergies, diabetes and neuropsychiatric issues.” - See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf "
The Data goes on and on. I feel and have always felt that we keep our tanks much to clean and our fish food much to sterile. New research suggests this and you can find it all over the place.
I believe it because I am an outdoor kind of a guy and always have been. I never believed you have to wash your hands every time you eat unless you just got off the New York City Subway system because that is not dirt. That is bubonic plague, typhoid, diphtheria and any number of social diseases, but if you were just working in the garden or you just helped a Supermodel jump start her car, those germs won't hurt you. (unless the Supermodel just got off the subway and that is not likely to happen because Supermodels would never ride in a subway)
As I have said numerous times feeding live worms and other foods that have not been sterilized is the reason my fish are immune from (so far) everything. It is the "dirt" and associated bacteria and parasites that are the secret.
I feel we should keep our fish away from foods that claim that they are free from parasites and harmful organisms.
I read everything this man wrote then googled "Eat Dirt" and found a wealth of information on why eating dirt is good for you. No, don't go out and eat dirt, read the article first. But what he says and what I read on a few more places on the subject.
Also this from the American Medical Association a couple of months ago:
“Countless studies have found children who spend recess time in a green environment, rather than on cement or blacktop, perform better on tests in the classroom, have reduced symptoms of ADHD and stress, and lower risk of obesity,” she says. “They’re also more likely to have perfect vision than those who spend most of their time indoors.”
- See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf
There are data that say our immune system and bodies in general, function best when exposed to not only microbes, or organisms, but also to diversity too. That has to come not only from a diverse diet, but also the environment. Quite simply, our kids need to go out and play in the dirt.
For example, regular use of bleach is associated with more – not fewer – infections in kids, according to a 2015 study published in Occupational & Environmental Medicine. “Children aren’t as healthy as they once were or as they could be,” she says. “I’ve observed more incidences of chronic illness and health issues like allergies, diabetes and neuropsychiatric issues.” - See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf "
The Data goes on and on. I feel and have always felt that we keep our tanks much to clean and our fish food much to sterile. New research suggests this and you can find it all over the place.
I believe it because I am an outdoor kind of a guy and always have been. I never believed you have to wash your hands every time you eat unless you just got off the New York City Subway system because that is not dirt. That is bubonic plague, typhoid, diphtheria and any number of social diseases, but if you were just working in the garden or you just helped a Supermodel jump start her car, those germs won't hurt you. (unless the Supermodel just got off the subway and that is not likely to happen because Supermodels would never ride in a subway)
As I have said numerous times feeding live worms and other foods that have not been sterilized is the reason my fish are immune from (so far) everything. It is the "dirt" and associated bacteria and parasites that are the secret.
I feel we should keep our fish away from foods that claim that they are free from parasites and harmful organisms.
Paul B
Well-Known Member
This morning my wife and I were discussing how we lived when we were much younger and how the world has changed. My Dad and her Dad had retail stores. My dad had a fish market and just like her dad and everyone with a food market there was piles of saw dust on the floor. The cutting boards were wood, the knife handles were wood and the fish, and meat came in wooden crates as plastic was not available then. I am talking about the fifties.
I used to play in the back yard of our fish market and shoot flies with a rubber band. We also had live carp and eels in old bath tubs.
At the end of the week my Dad would sweep the floor and throw out all the old, fish scale infested sawdust and put down clean sawdust. Every night he would clean, using soap and bleach the knives and cutting boards.
Today, you are not allowed to use saw dust, wooden handled knives or cutting boards probably because of lawyers. I am sure someone, some where got sick and saw dust was blamed just like coffee can't be hot any more.
But it was the saw dust, cutting boards and wooden knife handles as well as numerous other things that enhanced our immune systems.
I was always an out doors kid and cut myself many times. I would rinse it off in a puddle or pond and go about my business never thinking about it.
I had an uncle that worked at the docks in NYC, one of the roughest places on Earth at that time. He got stabbed in the belly twice when 3 guys tried to mug him. (the muggers didn't fare very well) My Uncle wrapped the wounds in the same rag he cleaned eels with and lived to be about 90 never seeing a doctor or dentist in his life.
When my Mom would get a cold as a kid, her Mother would make her sleep in the horse stables thinking the smell of horse poop would cure her. (my Mom was born in lower Manhattan in 1910) My Mother lived to be 99 years old, she died of old age and was never sick and never even took an aspirin. How many people today could say that?
The point of this is that today how many kids do you know with allergies? How many kids are allergic to peanuts? How many kids are home from school with colds?
How many people in their 60s or 70s can you name with allergies?
Probably very few. As a kid no one in my school had any allergies and we all ate peanuts. I always got an attendance award because I was never out sick. I think in the 40 years I worked as a construction worker in Manhattan I was out maybe 3 or 4 times from being sick and never for having a cold, allergy or anything else except maybe a broken bone or disk problem.
That is IMO because I was brought up in a natural environment surrounded by bacteria and never having access to that silly sterilizing hand spray that people today feel they have to take baths in.
I still almost never get a cold, flu or any silly infection.
The little kids in My Grand Daughter's school almost all have some sort of allergy. My Grand Daughter is allergic to everything and half the kids in her school are allergic to something. Peanuts are outlawed in many restaurants and schools.
Kids today, (Like fish) get all sorts of things and in some homes it is an adventure waking up to see if the kids have some sort of infection.
I feel this is a big problem in our fish tanks and the biggest cause of all the posts on disease threads.
This is also why I go to a muddy bay and collect mud to throw in my tank. If I didn't live by the sea, I would throw regular dirt in there as I did when I started my tank.
I also feel we have to start thinking of bacteria as a good thing instead of a bad thing.
Just my thoughts of course and not meant to be taken as fact. Just an observation that is obvious to anyone who is a lot older than most fish people.
I used to play in the back yard of our fish market and shoot flies with a rubber band. We also had live carp and eels in old bath tubs.
At the end of the week my Dad would sweep the floor and throw out all the old, fish scale infested sawdust and put down clean sawdust. Every night he would clean, using soap and bleach the knives and cutting boards.
Today, you are not allowed to use saw dust, wooden handled knives or cutting boards probably because of lawyers. I am sure someone, some where got sick and saw dust was blamed just like coffee can't be hot any more.
But it was the saw dust, cutting boards and wooden knife handles as well as numerous other things that enhanced our immune systems.
I was always an out doors kid and cut myself many times. I would rinse it off in a puddle or pond and go about my business never thinking about it.
I had an uncle that worked at the docks in NYC, one of the roughest places on Earth at that time. He got stabbed in the belly twice when 3 guys tried to mug him. (the muggers didn't fare very well) My Uncle wrapped the wounds in the same rag he cleaned eels with and lived to be about 90 never seeing a doctor or dentist in his life.
When my Mom would get a cold as a kid, her Mother would make her sleep in the horse stables thinking the smell of horse poop would cure her. (my Mom was born in lower Manhattan in 1910) My Mother lived to be 99 years old, she died of old age and was never sick and never even took an aspirin. How many people today could say that?
The point of this is that today how many kids do you know with allergies? How many kids are allergic to peanuts? How many kids are home from school with colds?
How many people in their 60s or 70s can you name with allergies?
Probably very few. As a kid no one in my school had any allergies and we all ate peanuts. I always got an attendance award because I was never out sick. I think in the 40 years I worked as a construction worker in Manhattan I was out maybe 3 or 4 times from being sick and never for having a cold, allergy or anything else except maybe a broken bone or disk problem.
That is IMO because I was brought up in a natural environment surrounded by bacteria and never having access to that silly sterilizing hand spray that people today feel they have to take baths in.
I still almost never get a cold, flu or any silly infection.
The little kids in My Grand Daughter's school almost all have some sort of allergy. My Grand Daughter is allergic to everything and half the kids in her school are allergic to something. Peanuts are outlawed in many restaurants and schools.
Kids today, (Like fish) get all sorts of things and in some homes it is an adventure waking up to see if the kids have some sort of infection.
I feel this is a big problem in our fish tanks and the biggest cause of all the posts on disease threads.
This is also why I go to a muddy bay and collect mud to throw in my tank. If I didn't live by the sea, I would throw regular dirt in there as I did when I started my tank.
I also feel we have to start thinking of bacteria as a good thing instead of a bad thing.
Just my thoughts of course and not meant to be taken as fact. Just an observation that is obvious to anyone who is a lot older than most fish people.
Paul,
You have made a convert of me. Gut cavity bacteria provide a wealth of different bacteria to assist with fish immune system. HTLL, head & tail lateral disease, only exist in captivity. While I am not a scientist, HTLL is not a disease, but a symptom. Our captive reef tanks are lacking the live food that is abundant on the reefs of the ocean. Step up to the HEB seafood counter and get some mussels, clams or ousters. Even if you don't like fresh bivalves, your fish and reef tank will.
Glad I found you on this website.
Your Cajun friend,
Patrick
On a different thread that we shared, the term "Microbial Overlords was used. I flippantly said that if you did not think that "bugs ruled", then you did not see Tom Cruise in "War of the Worlds".