Hoping things are going right

[DaveK]

When you get something like this, get a different brand of test kit and try again. Sometimes a test kit can go bad. Also test you ro/SI water and make sure this water is 0 before you mixt your salt with it, just to be sure.

I agree with @nanoreefing4fun in that a 50% water change should have reduced nitrates by 50%. So you either have a nitrate level way over what the test kit can read or you have a bad test kit. Perhaps your LFS can do a test for you using a different brand of test kit?

It is possible to extend the range of a test kit by diluting the test sample with distilled water. For example, if you use 1 part tank water to 9 parts distilled water, the mixed water will contain 10% of the nitrate in the original tank water. Then do the test using the mixed water and multiple the results by 10.

 

[Leigh]

Thanks so much for the advise that led to a discovery I have made about the water from my closest lfs. After reading the replies it got me thinking of the condition of the water I had been buying so I tested a bit I had left for topping up with .this led to me discovering that the ro water I had been buying was already over 100ppm nitrate hense the reason I have struggled to get it down with water changes .I have since changed supplier and instantly after even a 10% water change I could see that it was a lot clearer than previous changes .the shop I was using with the bad water was recommended to me by a friend who at the same time as I set up started getting problems with corals aptasia and hair algae despite water changes so testing that water helped us both .I have yet to complete the water changes to bring nitrate down enough to a lower level of preference but after 1st test was clearly lower I'm sure things will get there very soon although I'm not too fussed if it takes another month or so as I'm more interested in building a strong bacteria colony than I am adding fish or coral for now..anyway main reason for the post was to say thank you to all who replied with their excellent views that led to my findings and managed to help more than one tank ....many thanks uncle99 nanoreefing4fun. Dave k and anyone else that has helped with the bombardment if questions I've given

 

[Leigh]

So I'm still hoping something isn't a miss with my tank cycle ..I know I've already been told that every tank is different by more than one member but I'm being told by lfs that I should have had hair algae bloom which I haven't. So should I still be expecting this before my tank us truly cycled or is it possible it wont happen my nitrate levels are now coming down with water changes my nitrite is 0.1 and my amonia is 0-0.15 but I'm thinking more on the 0 side it's just cloudy in the vile. I am using man made rock water in tank isn't cloudy diatoms have started fading then came back slightly now fading again and only the 2 highest rock have had brown discolouring on them ...any thoughts ? My tank is still being left for at least another month or so yet to be safe but I'm on week 7 currently

 

[Uncle99]

The same LFS that sells 100ppm RODI water which should be 0ppm.....

The ugly stages are likely to come which can include GHA RHA Dino’s, cyano, to name the biggies.

Some, all of these may come, that would be a normal progression of your tank.

Stay the course, when you have zero of ammonia and nitrites, then a 50% water change and your ready for a fish.

This will put a small load on your filtration and then as you slowly add, your bacteria will “catch” up handling a bigger load each time.

Algae shows up when two things are in excess.

Light..... too long.....too intense....incorrect spectrum....

Phosphate.... is GHA food.... work towards a phosphate level of .03-.07.....max .1

Nitrate.... once cycle complete.... work this downwards.... fish only 20-30ppm .... if you keep corals 2-5ppm.

Stay the course.

 

[Leigh]

Now that makes more sense to me. thats pretty much what I was thinking along the lines of what should be happening (maybe not exact but close to that than what I've been listening to) I'm extending my un official approximate end of cycle timing by at least another month due to high nitrates being added and the fact that I want to be 100% sure that my bacteria are well formed enough to get the best possible outcome for a successful reef tank it shouldn't hurt to let things build up a bit longer anyway so that's where I'm heading the go slow method is definitely still in full or should I say slow swing lol .thanks for the reply it has completely put me at ease after being told by someone in a good lfs that I'm ready .I'm glad I asked for better advice and sense on here before doing anything drastic that probably would have ended in disaster .the new suppliers water tested good yet their info on new tanks is a little off to say the least so no more asking questions at the shop from now .thanks again much appreciated

 

[Uncle99]

I don't get the LFS comment you should have GHA. As you know, the "cycle" describes a point in time, when we add some ammonia, the bacteria population can easily processes to nitrite, to nitrate, and to nitrogen gas which removed through the exchange of gases.

Having GHA or any of the uglies describes excess nutrients, mainly phosphate, followed by nitrate to a lesser extent, and usually a condition of newer tanks.

We want to get the initial cycle in place to indicate we can add a living Ammomia maker, then the population of bacteria will continue to,increase to compensate for this load, then add, and increase, and add, an increase and somewhere down the line....say 12-18 months this,population is quite strong and includes both the denitrification bacteria and the nitrifiers which take a lot more time. This is why at the start the bacteria can handle the ammonia, but the nitrate, not so much, so you will be working over time to bring this number down.

Water changes, skimming, carbon dosing all work towards lowering nitrate.
Not over feeding and running GFO will reduce phosphate.

Now nitrate and phosphate levels are not so important in a fish only tank, but these two become very important to corals. For corals, 0 on both these is a bad number, shoot for nitrate 2-5ppm, and phosphate 0.03-0.07ppm

 

[Leigh]

I have lost all faith in lfs info and advice was told different things each time from 3 different places hense the confusion I was in .I'm struggling myself to make head or tail of it all but the advice you have given has made a lot of sense .I'm just a bit peed that they were probably gearing up to sell something to cure one thing or another and feeding me a load of bull instead of taking time to give me the right info and very nearly putting me back at square 1 .I'm glad I thought to ask here for a sensible answer and I'm very grateful for the help/advice you give

 

[Uncle99]

If I might add one thing going forward which I Found absolutely critical that was stability.

Keeping all 8 parameters on point, all the time, with as little flux as possible is the key to great success. That includes light. So many change the light so frequent it freaks out the corals.

Corals HATE any change!

I employ both a doser and an ATO to achieve this.

The other thing is crabs. I use none, they become nothing but trouble and they don't eat much algae at all, however they can and will eat anything they can catch.

Good luck, have fun

 

[Leigh]

Ammonia nitrate nitrite phosphate alkalinity calcium magnesium ph and salinity which of these do you not test for or had you forgot one .I'm not trying to point out a mistake just wondered if one of my tests were pointless or not and also if you test for anything else other than that ..didnt want to seem like I was being cocky I'm not like that at all ..also would you be testing all this right through the cycle or just the main ones for the cycle for now then stabilise all other levels as it calms down ?

 

[Uncle99]

At all times, temp, ph and salinity. I maintain a .5 degree swing in temp, and use an ATO to maintain salinity with zero swing. So that’s three. Should be easy to maintain Ph between 7.8-8.3, I don’t chase this one.

Working nutrients levels is much more challenging and I am interested in nitrate which I manage with of course my rock, my skimmer and carbon dosing, And regular weekly water changes. This took me about six months to stabilize. So that’s four.

Phosphate is five, using a GFO, so that’s five

I started measuring and recording the above five right after cycle as it takes time to get the nitrate-phosphate import/export thing firstly in range and then stable.

Now, when water changes could not keep Alk, Ca and Mg in range, I needed to dose these three, Alk being the critical one, so that’s eight.

Only concerned with testing ammonia and nitrite until cycle complete.

Become a master at making mixing and deploying perfect water each and every time and everything you drop in your tank will thrive.

Just a rant from an old man

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Uncle has a great grasp of this... and advise - his tank proves it !

but just trying to get through your cycle... don't fret, once corals are added they become paramount

to get you started... if it been 30 days... just test for ammonia and nitrites - then do water changes to bring down your nitrates and add 1st fish (or a pair) , your clean up crew & 1st coral, then wait a month and start testing for all above... but don't chase numbers, stability as Uncle has said many times is Key

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

and read this post - Randy's one of Americas premier reef chemist

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

S. RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY
Arlington, Massachusetts

EDUCATION

1982-1986 Harvard University Cambridge, MA
PhD in Chemistry
Research Advisor: George Whitesides

Investigated the relationship between polymer surface chemistry and physical properties through controlled surface modification and testing.

1980-1982 Cornell University Ithaca, NY
BA in Chemistry and Biology
Graduated Summa Cum Laude
Distinction in All Subjects
Grade Point: 3.94/4.0
Honors research: isolation and characterization of the epsilon subunit of CF1 enzyme

1978-1979 Stanford University Palo Alto, CA
Grade Point: 3.55/4.0

EXPERIENCE

1992– present Genzyme Drug Disvcovery and Development Waltham, MA
(bought out GelTex Pharmaceuticals in 2001)
Vice President and Distinguished Scientific Fellow 2006-present
Vice President, Chemical Research 2001-2006
Senior Director, Chemical Research 1999-2001
Director of Chemical Research 1997-1999
Manager of Chemical Research 1995-1997
Group Leader 1994-1995
Senior Research Scientist 1992-1994

Helped start GelTex as second employee
Managed various research programs with multi-million dollar budgets
Supervised research chemists (17+)
Co-inventor of several polymeric pharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical candidates including Sevelamer Hydrochloride (FDA approved) and Colesevelam Hydrochloride (FDA approved)
Company Safety Officer for 3 years
Chemical Hygiene Officer 2000-present


1990-1992 GTE Corporation Waltham, MA
Senior Member of Technical Staff
Applied research involving polymer interfaces
Metallization of plastics
Polymer/polymer adhesion
Optical coatings

1986-1990 Lord Corporation Cary, NC
Senior Research Scientist 1988-1990
Research Scientist 1986-1988
Basic and applied research on surface chemical bonding
Developed new adhesive compositions
Developed new sol-gel coatings for corrosion resistance

HONORS AND AWARDS

Amercian Chemical Society Team Innovation Award 2005
Industrial Innovations Award by Northeast Region of American Chemical Society (6/2001)
National Kidney Foundation of Northern California Honoree (5/2001)
American Chemical Society/Polymer Chemistry Division Industrial Sponsors Award (8/2000)
R&D 100 Award from R&D magazine (1999)
Sherwin Williams Award in applied polymer science (9/85)
IBM Predoctoral Fellowship in Polymer Science (1984-1985; 1985-1986)
Award for highest GPA in Chemistry Department (6/82)
Summa Cum Laude Honors in Chemistry (6/82)
Phi Lamda Epsilon (6/82)
Phi Beta Kappa (2/82)
Cornell University Dean's List (1981, 1982)
Harvard Book Club Award for highest GPA senior year (1978)
First Place in western NY ACS high school chemistry exam (1977)

 

[Leigh]

Randy sure has a lot of honours award and qualifications I would love to have all that knowledge in my brain ...nanoreefing4fun your right uncle99 has a lovely tank and in the future I'm hoping to get results like that too .I'm not really fretting too much more just cramming on info and advice from wise veterans who have been there seen it and done it and show the results. for now I'm taking baby steps with it all and I keep looking back on the advice I've been given on here just to keep check on what I am doing is right .I'm not very good with text expressions so please excuse me if something I write comes across as panicking or frustrated I have a very calm view on all of this including timescales levels etc I'm sure I will learn as I go and not go too far wrong following the advice of the r/s members that are kind enough to read my jumble make sense of it (or try ) and steer me right I'm always grateful for the replys and one day maybe I can give my advice to others in need after a long lengthy period of successfull reefing

 

[Uncle99]

In no way do you come across incorrectly.
You do come across as someone who cares about what they do, but no need to invent the wheel so to speak.

I got these results from following the advice of nanoreefing4fun, DaveK, Oxy and so many others who were kind enough to share their experiences, but I must admit it was this site whereas things changed big time for me after 27 years of partial success.

Your doing all the right things so enjoy, the members are here if and when you need us.

We truly hope that you will share your experiences with the group, this is one site that truly honours all!!!

 

[Leigh]

Hi guys been offline for a while and trying not to look too far into anything while the tank finished cycling ....sooo here's where I'm at . Tank has definitely cycled I've had cuc in there 3/4 weeks I've lost 2 snails around a week ago think due to this damn nitrate level that just doesn't seem to wanna give in .I've changed on a few occasions at least 50l a time with a couple WC being 75l but still nitrate way up there which I think is also the reason I'm having a cyano outbreak so fast attention needed on this to ensure I'm fish ready and cure the cyano with any luck. My question here is when doing a WC can i go back and forth in one day changing 50l a time or do i need to change 50-75% in one go to accomplish my bringing down of nitrates as changing 50l per week has pretty much done nothing .I'm am wbuying ro from lfs but can only transport 50l per trip but if needed I'll make numerous trips same day but I'll be taking out 50l then refilling with 50l fresh ro then approx an hour later repeating .should this work or do I need to leave a while longer between changes or will it be fine

 

[Leigh]

Hi guys been offline for a while and trying not to look too far into anything while the tank finished cycling ....sooo here's where I'm at . Tank has definitely cycled I've had cuc in there 3/4 weeks I've lost 2 snails around a week ago think due to this damn nitrate level that just doesn't seem to wanna give in .I've changed on a few occasions at least 50l a time with a couple WC being 75l but still nitrate way up there which I think is also the reason I'm having a cyano outbreak so fast attention needed on this to ensure I'm fish ready and cure the cyano with any luck. My question here is when doing a WC can i go back and forth in one day changing 50l a time or do i need to change 50-75% in one go to accomplish my bringing down of nitrates as changing 50l per week has pretty much done nothing .I'm am wbuying ro from lfs but can only transport 50l per trip but if needed I'll make numerous trips same day but I'll be taking out 50l then refilling with 50l fresh ro then approx an hour later repeating .should this work or do I need to leave a while longer between changes or will it be fine

I might add it's a 250l tank

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

My My question here is when doing a WC can i go back and forth in one day changing 50l a time or do i need to change 50-75% in one

You can... go back and forth in one day changing 50l a time

you will be just be changing out some one the new water you just changed...

Nitrates are not very deadly to fish or corals, nothing like ammonia or nitrites...

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

on your cyano... pretty common in new tanks... here a read that may help

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/brown-green-algae-in-new-tanks.66048/

 

[Leigh]

You can... go back and forth in one day changing 50l a time

you will be just be changing out some one the new water you just changed...

Nitrates are not very deadly to fish or corals, nothing like ammonia or nitrites...

Thanks for that I was wondering if it would still be effective doing them so close together. My thinking was that it may not have mixed well enough to contain enough of the nitrates to be taken out on the following trips after the 1st ..much appreciated

 

[Leigh]

on your cyano... pretty common in new tanks... here a read that may help

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/brown-green-algae-in-new-tanks.66048/

Blimey when I get a spare week I'll read all that post. Read through 1st 3/4 pages didnt see anything about red cyano / bacteria but loads on green hair and brown diatoms and how much ppl prefer snails over hermits .from what I've read so far that was a top thread to read on the issue and I'm sure I'll find the answers I need in it .apparently cyano feeds on nitrates and phosphates and I already know my nitrates are high ( the cause ) and phosphates are 0 currently so hopefully once I e completed my mission to lower nitrate by water change i should be able to clean off cyano and keep it at bay from there ...as I've read so much .a water change and time are best way forward ......see i have learnt from here lol