Nobby's S-650

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
Nothing. The corals on offer were not that good. Any good ones had gone early. The expert didn't speak English, and the Leopard Wrasse had already gone....and it's bloody snowing !
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
In the meantime, I have lost my smallest Blue Chromis. Looking at it, I don't think it was any disease, but that it was just bullied out of the group. I think it was Chromis doing what Chromis do.
Also, my male Lyretail Anthia has developed into a beautiful young man...err...fish.
When I got the five of them, they were all pretty much the same, with this one being slightly bigger. Now, his transformation is complete. He has developed a longer tail, changed colour quite dramatically so he is now a darkened reddish colour, with fins turning black. He does look magnificent!
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Your opinions please.

I love Powder Blue Tangs, but do I get one?

I can’t remeber what other Tangs you have, but aggression vs other Tangs is the main concern, I think. If you are OK on that front then yes, get one!

Even if you aren’t ok you might want to try it. Maybe add the Tang at night for the best chance of it working out.

Also, Chromis have a long history of widdling down their numbers. I wouldn’t fret that at all.
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
I do have a Yellow Tang, Tomini Tang and a Blue Tang, but after reading up I don't think there will be a problem with them. However, it's the 'Ich Magnet' bit that gets me worried.
 

Pancho75

Well-Known Member
I do not see any issue, if you want to be in a safer side, maybe adding to two tangs instead of one will be better or at least the tang and another fish.

As you have red already the Blue Powder Tang are ich magnets but if I properly recall you have used Medic if necessary.

Send us the pics once you have it!
 
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SPR

Well-Known Member
I do have a Yellow Tang, Tomini Tang and a Blue Tang, but after reading up I don't think there will be a problem with them. However, it's the 'Ich Magnet' bit that gets me worried.
That’s why I haven’t got one, yet anyway!

I read the article below a while ago and you can see what it says about ich appearing quickly and to run UVC etc. I didn’t want to take any risks so just bought something else instead.

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.../powder-blue-surgeonfish-look-before-you-keep
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
The whole 'Ich magnet' thing raises so many questions. The 'experts' keep telling us that we must quarantine all fish to ensure they are healthy before putting them into the tank, yet time and time again, we read that after quarantining fish still develop Ich ! So, using a QT is not 100%.
My opinion, and this is just my opinion, is that Ich can be looked at as something similar to cancer in humans. As humans, we all carry cancer cells. For most, this never affects them, but for other something triggers the cancer, and it starts to grow and eventually kill the human. Let's not forget that Cancer cells are also living things. I think Ich in fish has something in common with this, and that for most fish Ich is always there, but just lays dormant and is never an issue. For other fish, something triggers the Ich to start growing.
Some 'experts' say that Ich can only be introduced into a tank. Is it a case that in reality it is always there, somewhere? I know we've spoken about this many times in various threads, but for me this is the one area that really needs to improve in our hobby, the understanding, identification and elimination/control of disease in fish.
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
The whole 'Ich magnet' thing raises so many questions. The 'experts' keep telling us that we must quarantine all fish to ensure they are healthy before putting them into the tank, yet time and time again, we read that after quarantining fish still develop Ich ! So, using a QT is not 100%.

There is a difference between QT'ing and medicating tanks. Yes, time in QT to observe the fish is a good thing and recommended to do. But just QT'ing a fish isn't going to kill any parasites. Medicating a fish in QT will. People use the two interchangeable and thus there is confusion about it. And yes there is a lot of conflicting information on the subject. This is partly because many people have many different opinions on the subject and different experience. Many information shared is anecdotal. As with much information in the age of the internet, you need to put on your critical thinking cap on when deciphering peoples experience and opinions.

If you have a fish that is known to be more susceptible to marine ich and other protozoa or disease it is advisable to treat with meds in a QT before placing in your main tank. Not just observing them. Some people medicate all their fish for a time before adding to the main tank, and other just observe them in QT. Some facilities will treat their fish (see Divers Den medicating procedures before fish are available for purchase) and others won't.

My opinion, and this is just my opinion, is that Ich can be looked at as something similar to cancer in humans. As humans, we all carry cancer cells. For most, this never affects them, but for other something triggers the cancer, and it starts to grow and eventually kill the human. Let's not forget that Cancer cells are also living things. I think Ich in fish has something in common with this, and that for most fish Ich is always there, but just lays dormant and is never an issue. For other fish, something triggers the Ich to start growing.

Um, no. But I see where you are going with this analogy. It is an interesting way to try to make sense of what you are seeing that is happening. Unlike cells in our own bodies that are always there and can change, marine ich is a protozoa and isn't always there. Protozoa are single celled organisms, not part of our own bodies. Protozoans separate living organisms. Many call them parasites because they are an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host, in this case a fish) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense. This is why it is different from cancer.

But, what you are also hitting on (I believe) is an organism living with a parasite (or cancer in your analogy) is always there. But, it is always there only if the fish is not treated with medication to eradicate the protozoa. Just watching a fish in QT with marine ich that you can't see won't eradicate it. The marine ich protozoa is in such low numbers that you aren't seeing it and the fish is living with it b/c at low numbers it doesn't necessarily cause ill affects to the fish.

What some discussions have been hitting on is the ability of the host (fish) to live a certain amount of time with the protozoa, which may be the case in the wild where the protozoa isn't able to build up in numbers that overwhelm the fish (some are using the word immune). But, in closed systems such as our tanks, it only takes time for the protozoa to build up in numbers where it literally consumes the fish host (affects the outer body of the fish and more importantly the gills) and spreads to other fish hosts in the closed system.

In addition, stress is known to weaken an fish's immune system which also allows for the protozoa to easily take over and spread.

Some 'experts' say that Ich can only be introduced into a tank.

This is true. If marine ich is not in a tank b/c all the fish have been medically treated to get rid of it, then an introduction can lead to a new break out. If it was never in a tank then you shouldn't see any breakouts. The issues here is that one little protozoa living on a host can do so for a while and a full blown breakout isn't necessarily seen for a while.

Is it a case that in reality it is always there, somewhere?

No, marine ich can't live without a host. Understanding the life cycle of the protozoa goes a long way towards eradicating from a tank and making sure all new fish go through medicated treatment before being added to a tank.

I know we've spoken about this many times in various threads, but for me this is the one area that really needs to improve in our hobby, the understanding, identification and elimination/control of disease in fish.

Fully agree. Many articles and posts mention that QT'ing is needed. And many take that as the answer all their issues or a preventative means for eliminating disease and parasites. In reality, true elimination happens with the fish is treated with meds to make sure that you are killing an unseen parasite and/or possible disease. As I mentioned before there is a difference between QT'ing and medicating.

What someone like you and me can do is read up on the fish we are getting. If the fish known to be susceptible to marine ich (aka an ich magnet) or is the fish known to have internal worms in its gut (aka many wrasses), etc., with that knowledge we can then set up a medicated tank for the fish and treat accordingly. This can go a long way towards keeping healthier fish and our main display tanks.

What happens fairly often is that when someone sets up a main tank a fish gets added and once that first fish is introduced to the main display tank without being medicated then any introduction of parasite or disease can occur. Any following fish introduced who is more susceptible can obtain the protozoa. And it is just a ticking time bomb where in time some issue might arise.

Now back to the immunity discussion, if you would like to join an older conversation on this topic, and I think you would, since you put much thought into this post, check out these threads:
Treating marine Ich in main tank
A discussion on Immunity

Happy to have more discussion on the matter.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Nevermind. I didn't realize this was Nobby's tank thread. I don't want to clutter it up with my time on the couch. :)

Well, I’ll put it back since Oxy responded. :)


———-

@Oxylebius , that is an excellent post as always! One nice thing about Marine Ich is it is actually a very well understood organism because of its impact on the aquaculture industry and the research done there to understand it.

One thing I wanted to mention is that you say "medicated" in your above post, but, unless I'm missing something, "medicated" wouldn't need to exactly mean using chemical medication. For example, one of the reasons I treated Marine Ich with Tank Transfer method was precisely because I didn't want to use copper.

As a complete aside, I actually think I should be using TTM or maybe the hybrid method you posted for ALL of the fish I bring into my system. Right now, I'm fairly sure my system is truly Marine Ich free, but I've gotten kind of lazy and now I'm using an observation/QT just to see if I see any problems and if I don't I'm adding to my display without any treatment if I don't notice any problems.

One of the things I like about TTM is its so harmless (assuming you are careful about the transfers). No copper or other medicines. I really should use it for every single fish. I know some people do.

I have feeling I'm going to be writing a teed off post in the near future about how that backfired on me because some fish had Marine Ich and I didn't notice during the observation period. :)
 
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Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
There are many ways to 'medicate' as you say. I did mean to medicate by means of medication. I am all for using medication and have a dedicated tank to medicating. I am fully aware that there are others who argue against medicating, using copper, or anything else. If you can 'medicate' by means of not using actually meds, by all means please go ahead and do so.

I have a wrasse that is known for internal worms, and actually had them. Sometimes your only option is medicating by means of medication to get rid of something.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
There are many ways to 'medicate' as you say. I did mean to medicate by means of medication. I am all for using medication and have a dedicated tank to medicating. I am fully aware that there are others who argue against medicating, using copper, or anything else. If you can 'medicate' by means of not using actually meds, by all means please go ahead and do so.

I have a wrasse that is known for internal worms, and actually had them. Sometimes your only option is medicating by means of medication to get rid of something.

Oh for sure! I am not opposed at all to using things like prazipro or copper if I need to.
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
My vote is for getting the Blue Powder Tang


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was looking at a beautiful Powder Blue Tang, a juvenile a few days ago.

It was a stunning fish but the LFS said they are ich magnets and the specimen there had had 2 recent infections both of which cleared up in a few days.

I don’t really now what to say, other than is it worth the risk when there are so many other fishes available. Especially with the recent problematic history.

It’s quiet funny actually. I passed the man who owns the shop in his car driving the other way, and he saw me driving to his shop. He immediately turned his car around and arrived back at the shop a few minutes after me to boost his pension pot!! It made me smile that did....

I do however get a very good service. When I was looking at different fish he just kept saying, you don’t want that one, or that one for various ‘ unsocial behaviours’ reasons, so I can’t fault my LFS now at all. He also gets me Red Sea stuff at less than anywhere else and doesn’t even normally stock it.

Anyway I didn’t buy any fish on that trip despite many many temptations. You see I was in control of myself... Well until I eyed up some fancy corals and spent £350!! Lol. Yes £ not $!
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I was looking at a beautiful Powder Blue Tang, a juvenile a few days ago.

It was a stunning fish but the LFS said they are ich magnets and the specimen there had had 2 recent infections both of which cleared up in a few days.

I don’t really now what to say, other than is it worth the risk when there are so many other fishes available. Especially with the recent problematic history.

It’s quiet funny actually. I passed the man who owns the shop in his car driving the other way, and he saw me driving to his shop. He immediately turned his car around and arrived back at the shop a few minutes after me to boost his pension pot!! It made me smile that did....

I do however get a very good service. When I was looking at different fish he just kept saying, you don’t want that one, or that one for various ‘ unsocial behaviours’ reasons, so I can’t fault my LFS now at all. He also gets me Red Sea stuff at less than anywhere else and doesn’t even normally stock it.

Anyway I didn’t buy any fish on that trip despite many many temptations. You see I was in control of myself... Well until I eyed up some fancy corals and spent £350!! Lol. Yes £ not $!


@SPR , you actually make a very good point. I was thinking about this after my earlier post. It’s not nearly as fun, but with the recent history of Marine Ich, discretion may really be the better part of valor when it comes to getting a fish that is a known Ich magnet.

Upon further reflection, I’d probably avoid the powder blue tang...at least for now. I’m just imagining the problems that seem likely to follow.

Totally up to you, though. That’s my revised opinion as someone who just spent the last 4 months dealing with Marine Ich. :). I’m hoping I’m good now, but we will see.
 
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Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for your replies. This really is such a diverse hobby. No two tanks are the same, no two treatments are the same, no two fish are the same, the list is endless.
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
I couldn't resist it. The pull was just too strong. After my Canary & Leopard Wrasse both disappeared into the sand, never to be seen again, I thought I'd leave off buying any more Wrasse. Last week I was tempted by a Leopard Wrasse, but she was sold before I made a decision......However....on Saturday at another LFS....fresh out of quarantine.......was another Female Leopard Wrasse. She was swimming around quite nicely and also fed from frozen and flake.
So, quicker than you could read War & Peace (for it was indeed quicker than that!) I had the Leopard acclimatizing at home. To avoid any aggression I installed my fish trap again. This is now my standard practice when adding new fish. The new fish goes in the fish trap, which I leave in the tank for an hour or so. Eventually, I just raise the door and the new fish is free to leave, although the fish trap acts as a 'safe haven' for the newbie if it feels threatened. Before the day was out, the Leopard was out swimming freely without any major aggression being shown, apart from some flashing from the Melarunus Wrasse.
I did take a big gulp when it dove under the sand for the night, wondering if I'll ever see her again, but Sunday morning, there she was in all her glory! She no longer stays in one corner of the tank, but covers the entire tank with her wanderings. I've even removed the fish trap as I don't think it is needed any more.
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
Things that make you go Gggrrrrr.
I recently decided to have a clearout of some old stuff I had hanging around from my current, and previous tanks. We all accumulate equipment that we no longer use. One of the things I had laying around was a Tunze Nano 9002 Skimmer. For those who don't know what it is, it is an Internal Skimmer for use in the tank. I put the stuff on eBay. Now, everything I sell has had a good clean. Soaked in vinegar etc, so it looks sparkling. I also test everything to ensure it's in good working order. I wouldn't sell something that is crap.
Some bloke bought it for 40 euro and I shipped it to him. Two weeks later, he gets back to me to say it doesn't work. He wants his money back. That is no problem. If he says it doesn't work, then I am not going to argue. I gave him his money back and I had to pay for the postage to have it shipped back to me, so I was actually out of pocket on this.
However, when I inspected it on it's return it was pretty obvious that he had been 'playing' with it (to put in mildly). The bottom slider had been prised off with something like a screwdriver, as it was buckled. The mains cable, as it entered the main body had had the outer plastic cut with the internal electrical wires now exposed. Not much surprise that it didn't work! He had basically fecked around with it, damaged it, and now had his money back. I was out of pocket with a now worthless Skimmer.
In these cases you can't prove anything, but it does leave a bad taste in the mouth when someone does something like this.
 
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