Nobby's S-650

SPR

Well-Known Member
Yeah. It seems that there are more and more 'reef safe' medications being developed. Maybe the old tried and tested methods (ie. removal of fish into a hospital tank) are in the past? I've just received the Ruby Reef Rally, which says it is a reef safe medication against both Velvet and Flukes, but I haven't tried it. The Reef Rally was yet another example of what happens when the excreta hits the fan. After extensive reading, I thought I'd give it a go. However, I found just one shop in the UK that sold it, but that shop had a 'sister' shop in the Czech Republic. It wasn't available in Germany. Looking online I found that for 16 euros I could get next day delivery........the reality is that after paying that money it still took four days to arrive! Too late.
I will now always have a stock of Medication at hand for Velvet, Ich and Flukes. They all have expiration dates, but if they reach those dates without being used, I'd be a happy man and just replace the stock. I found the LFS to be a complete waste of time for medication, or even advice. Top Tip Shaun. Get a medical stock in place. Trying the Reef Safe medications just has to be a better alternative than a strip down.
One LFS, where I have spent literally hundreds of Euros just told me the story of the Public Aquarium in Munster, that lost everything to Flukes. The guy then crossed his arms, smiled at me, and said, "good luck" ! I will not ever go there again.

I think most of the LFS just don't have the in depth knowledge for these types of situation and you can get so much information online now and with product reviews it can make selecting the right product a bit easier. And someone like your LFS above that's not good at all and I don't blame you, I wouldn't go back - well unless they have some nice fish!!

If you struggle to get stuff try Charterhouse Aquatics in London as they do international shipping at a cost. I use them quiet a lot as well as shops on eBay for basic stuff.

I've been thinking myself about the medication and getting some, but I can get next day timed delivery on anything I need. Were you are it's good to do what you have done so it's ready for when needed in view if the deliver times. I'd probably do the research while your getting sorted and get whatever you need in, which your doing anyway.

To be honest having considered your situation, I don't think I would take down my tank as it would do more harm and damage so I would just go with some of the modern reef safe medication as certainly the reviews look ok.

I have asked a lot of questions of my LFS's in particular with regards to were their stock comes from to try and ascertain quarantine standards, and most use TMC and I've looked on their web site and they look very good as far as looking after fish etc for sale within the UK. I believe here we have very strict standards as far as this is concerned.

As far as critters getting in your tank, who knows were they come from. I've never dipped anything as I trust the LFS's and just acclimatise and in it goes!
 
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Nobbygas

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Charterhouse are ok, but their shipping costs to Germany are just so wrong !

I took the tank down as a last resort, as by that time I was at my wits end as to what to do.

So......I have re-scaped the tank, and produced a 'look' that has lowered the overall height of the rocks. Hopefully this will help with the flow. The Dino outbreak is receding. The water changes have helped, plus turning on the Skimmer. This had to be switched off when the Meds were added. Activated Carbon has also been put back in.

As I said earlier, I will not be returning to the independent LFS that didn't provide any support. That was also the last place I bought any livestock from. I can't say that that is where the infection came from....but.....
I shall continue to go to the large pet chain-store. Like yours they are sourced by TMC.
 
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SPR

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Charterhouse are ok, but their shipping costs to Germany are just so wrong !

I took the tank down as a last resort, as by that time I was at my wits end as to what to do.

So......I have re-scaped the tank, and produced a 'look' that has lowered the overall height of the rocks. Hopefully this will help with the flow. The Dino outbreak is receding. The water changes have helped, plus turning on the Skimmer. This had to be switched off when the Meds were added. Activated Carbon has also been put back in.

As I said earlier, I will not be returning to the independent LFS that didn't provide any support. That was also the last place I bought any livestock from. I can't say that that is where the infection came from....but.....
I shall continue to go to the large pet chain-store. Like yours they are sourced by TMC.

On the LFS its one of those things you can't prove but just have suspicions that it probably was.... but who knows.

I checked out the the postage and yes it did look expensive so you would have to buy several special items to make it worth while.

Glad to hear your getting it back up and running. When I had a Dino outbreak I did a 3 day blackout with curtains closed and increased water flow around the affected areas. It was gone when the lights came back on and never came back. So if you get stuck try this.

Oh and maybe go buy a UV-C. And not from China!
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
I will get the JBL 36w UV-C Monster Mega Rocket Launcher. As an ex-military man I don't know whether to fit it into the tank, or yomp around with it on my shoulder !
I've been measuring up around the Sump area, and it appears that your method is the best way to fit it in :yup: I assume that your input is at the bottom, with the output at the top?

The Dino outbreak is under control. I think it only started because A/ there were a few dead bodies in the rocks. B/ the sand was disturbed a lot during the removal of the rocks C/ the skimmer was switched off when the Meds were added. D/ The Carbon was removed because of the Meds. Put all these things together, a parameter imbalance formed, and the Dinos grew!
 
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SPR

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You've just had me checking the instructions to make sure I've had it the right way around! Lol

Although it looks like a rocket launcher, it actually fits perfectly we're I have it and there is plenty of room to get it out when you need to clean it.

On mine the inlet is at the top and the outlet at the bottom and it's fed from a Eheim 1000 on around half power. There is a photo on my build thread. You might be able to feed it from the spare pipe at the back as the flow should be around 500 lph although I don't know if this would affect the amount of flow back to the tank (same reason you can't connect a chiller to it on the S 650). Also the separate Eheim means you can't switch it off independently.

The UVC is the only equipment I have which is out of the sump so I've also got some marine grade hose clamps on both inlet and outlets. The outlet pipe sort of raps around the middle of the frame and then back into the sump. I've got a bit more hose than needed to make sure it doesn't slip back out as it's not fastended as such. Infact I might get a clip now!
 

Nobbygas

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Shouldn't the input be on the bottom and not the top? I only ask because if the water is 'falling down' does it travel too fast for the UVC to have any effect?

I will feed mine from a separate pump as well.
 
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SPR

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Shouldn't the input be on the bottom and not the top? I only ask because if the water is 'falling down' does it travel too fast for the UVC to have any effect?

I will feed mine from a separate pump as well.
Well I don't know the terminal velocity of falling water as apposed to 500lph but are you trying to say I have it the wrong way around!

Having re read the instructions, studied the flow charts you may well be correct my friend. So that's another job ive got to do!! lol

Oh and just to amuse you a little more, and this is true, ive had my head in the sump for the last few days, as I had noticed a very faint noise, like falling water, coming from the UVC and ive been scratching my head thinking why is it making that noise! Well now I know! lol
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
Well I don't know the terminal velocity of falling water as apposed to 500lph but are you trying to say I have it the wrong way around!

Having re read the instructions, studied the flow charts you may well be correct my friend. So that's another job ive got to do!! lol

Oh and just to amuse you a little more, and this is true, ive had my head in the sump for the last few days, as I had noticed a very faint noise, like falling water, coming from the UVC and ive been scratching my head thinking why is it making that noise! Well now I know! lol
I've actually opened a 'ticket' with JBL asking this question. When I get an answer, I'll let you know :yup:
 
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SPR

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Ok let me know what they say. I'm going away for a week shortly so I'm not going to do anything to the tank until i get back anyway.

Ive been looking at the terminal velocity of water falling which apparently is 9.8m/sec/sec so have spent the last hour seeing if that it more than 500 lph and I still don't know the answer but I bet the ticket will say, no it needs to be as per the flow diagrams!

At the moment the water is pushed up to the inlet and then falls down through the unit so although I can hear it i wouldn't have thought it would reach terminal velocity in a few inches but....

Anyway let me know what they say!
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
I've just got home and been looking at the UVC and how it's set up, basically as per the picture on my build thread, and certainly when you install yours you want it the correct way around and ill probably change mine as well over next few weeks. Potentially it's a 10 minute job turning it the opposite way around but you know what can happen with simple jobs and the inlet hose looks like it might need swapping and lengthening!

I was going to swap it around just now, but looking at it and the way my outlet hose is set up (going uphill about 18 inches or so up and over the side of the sump glass) I don't think the water will freefall down through the UVC body anyway as it won't exit the outlet hose until there is enough weight/pressure on it from within the UVC body, ie it's fills up, to push the water up the outlet hose and over the glass sump.

So my conclusion for the moment is that it works, but maybe not as efficiently as the opposite way around.

And you my friend have once again learned from my engineering stupidity! Lol
 

Nobbygas

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So far....

I asked the question, "Can I mount the AquaCristal UV-C 36w unit vertically? and if so, do I have to have the input on the bottom, or the top?"

The reply I got from JBL was, "It does not always bleed properly and air chambers can occur but it will still run and work properly."

I am still waiting for an answer concerning whether the Input can go on either the top or bottom.
 
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Nobbygas

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I would never question your engineering stupidity, as my engineering stupidity begins and ends with a large rubber mallet !

My only concern with the vertical mount is the speed of the water dropping down, as reading up, the longer the water is in contact with the UV, the more effective it is especially against parasites, which is why I suggest the input should be on the bottom.

It's a learning game eh? I've have learnt a lot in the last couple of weeks regarding Meds, hospital tanks etc. I now realise that a lot of the 'advice' given out is not that helpful to many of us. Some people have the time and facilities to organise things like hospital/quarantine tanks, but I think the vast majority of reef keepers have just the one tank, and that's it.
I did set-up a hospital tank, but it quickly became apparent that I couldn't keep it going. The time and effort was too much as it required daily water changes, daily testing. It actually took up more time and effort than the DT, so I closed it down and returned what fish I had back into the DT.
From now on for me, it has to be 'reef safe' Meds, and if they don't work, well, they don't work.
I now have 4 x Blue Chromis, 1 x Diamond Goby, 1 x Six Line Wrasse, and 1 x Cleaner Wrasse left. One of the Blue Chromis did look very bad and hid in the rocks for days, but yesterday he appeared swimming around and eating. It is only a small success, but after the wipe-out any crumb of comfort I can get is very welcome. The Cleaner Wrasse also looks bad, but he's still alive. I'm now dosing Ruby Reef Rally, so let's see what happens with the remaining fish.
 

Pat24601

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I would never question your engineering stupidity, as my engineering stupidity begins and ends with a large rubber mallet !

My only concern with the vertical mount is the speed of the water dropping down, as reading up, the longer the water is in contact with the UV, the more effective it is especially against parasites, which is why I suggest the input should be on the bottom.

It's a learning game eh? I've have learnt a lot in the last couple of weeks regarding Meds, hospital tanks etc. I now realise that a lot of the 'advice' given out is not that helpful to many of us. Some people have the time and facilities to organise things like hospital/quarantine tanks, but I think the vast majority of reef keepers have just the one tank, and that's it.
I did set-up a hospital tank, but it quickly became apparent that I couldn't keep it going. The time and effort was too much as it required daily water changes, daily testing. It actually took up more time and effort than the DT, so I closed it down and returned what fish I had back into the DT.
From now on for me, it has to be 'reef safe' Meds, and if they don't work, well, they don't work.
I now have 4 x Blue Chromis, 1 x Diamond Goby, 1 x Six Line Wrasse, and 1 x Cleaner Wrasse left. One of the Blue Chromis did look very bad and hid in the rocks for days, but yesterday he appeared swimming around and eating. It is only a small success, but after the wipe-out any crumb of comfort I can get is very welcome. The Cleaner Wrasse also looks bad, but he's still alive. I'm now dosing Ruby Reef Rally, so let's see what happens with the remaining fish.

I don't talk much about quarantine tanks on these forums and you pretty much just put the nail on the head as to why.

I KNOW they are best practice. I KNOW they are a good idea. I KNOW that's what people should be being taught.

But, all that said, I KNOW I can't keep up with one. They are actually harder to maintain well than an established display tank. I mean, just think about it. You have a much smaller tank with no good biological filter and you are putting sick distressed fish in it. That's just more than I can keep up with. I have twin 4 year old boys and a challenging job. My DT is a hobby I'm barely able to keep up with (and sometimes I'm not able to keep up with). A quarantine tank there is just no way.

So, I, like probably most of the reefing community, don't keep a QT. I completely understand that someday this is going to bite me in the rear and that's a price I'm 100% willing to accept when the time comes. I know it's not a good practice, but it is what it is and I'll deal with it when I have to. For the last few years, I haven't had to.

I have considered before buying a solid second tank used off of craig's list and having it half ready to go as a QT if I ever needed it. Something like a C-130. I've never done that though. Hopefully, I'll never need to.
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
I completely agree with both of you Pat/Nobbygas.

I know they maybe thought of as good practice etc etc but..... I just don't want one!

To be honest I could get a quarantine tank, but I can't see the point in putting a fish in on its own for however many weeks, treating it with who knows what, when I don't know what I'm looking for anyway. And to be honest I just don't want one for all the messing around you have both mentioned and that's it.

If I get a sick fish I will treat it with one of the modern reef safe medications because even if I could catch it, which would be virtually impossible, the stress of catching it and then dumping it in a hospital tank would probably finish it off anyway. I don't know anything about the 'old ways' as such because I'm new to this, and I'm not knocking any of them, but I will go modern methods all the way and having read about them there are many reef safe and proven (reviewed)medications out there without the need to wreck a tank.

I have read articles on fish immune systems and some people quarantine to keep everything in virtual sterile environments, and some people don't for reasons of building up the animals immune systems etc., and in my mind I will go with the latter.

I'm based here in the UK and I'm trusting on the LFS I've spent 1000's with and their supplier who I've checked out and who apparently have excellent standards as they have to to comply with our legislation on animal welfare. I don't know about the US or any other country so I'm not making any judgement on the standards elsewhere as I don't know. They may be even better.

Nobbygas, I'm probably going to turn the 'rocket launcher' UVC around at some point, although I might wait until the next clean as I'm pretty sure it's working anyway for reasons above although I understand the falling water principle but I think I've got this covered due to the exit hose rising up. Just make sure you get yours right though! Lol
 

Nobbygas

Well-Known Member
Now down to just four fish in the tank. Three small Blue Chromis and the Diamond Goby. The Six Line Wrasse 'disappeared' over the weekend, and so did a mature Blue Chromis. So, I completed a full course of Fluke Treatment first. Fish kept dying. Then I 'cleaned' the tank with water changes etc, and then applied a course of Ruby Reef Rally, which claims to treat both Flukes and Velvet, and fish have continued to die. Having seen White Spot in a Freshwater Tank before, I can say that whatever is affecting the fish is not White Spot.
I am not going to add anything else to the tank. It may sound heartless, but those four remaining fish will just have to deal with it.
 
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Pat24601

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Now down to just four fish in the tank. Three small Blue Chromis and the Diamond Goby. The Six Line Wrasse 'disappeared' over the weekend, and so did a mature Blue Chromis. So, I completed a full course of Fluke Treatment first. Fish kept dying. Then I 'cleaned' the tank with water changes etc, and then applied a course of Ruby Reef Rally, which claims to treat both Flukes and Velvet, and fish have continued to die. Having seen White Spot in a Freshwater Tank before, I can say that whatever is affecting the fish is not White Spot.
I am not going to add anything else to the tank. It may sound heartless, but those four remaining fish will just have to deal with it.

This sounds about how I would handle it. It totally sucks, but you might just have to let this play out and then rebuild once its run its course. If all the fish die, I think people would recommend leaving the tank fallow for a bit and then adding fish.

I've never had to go through this, but it definitely sucks. I think you are handling it appropriately.
 

SPR

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Yeah, I shall leave it fallow for at least six weeks. In the meantime I'll just concentrate on sorting out the Corals.

Sorry it's not improved but I would do exactly what you suggest and use this time to get the corals sorted out. And definitely get a UV-C installed and running asap as from what I've read it kills a lot of the bad things floating around in the water column before it can affect the fish, or at least help to prevent things getting worse.

I tell you what I also read while youve been having the problems, I was looking for fish to maybe eat bad things in the tank like parasites etc., just as part of the activity in the background. So I got a Blue Cleaner Wrasse, and 2 Neon Blue Gobies. If you read up on what they eat I thought they would be quiet handy doing their stuff. I've also got a yellow wrasse or something similar to do this as well.

On a positive note, you can use this period to get up and running on the Red Sea Reef Program and get your parameters all sorted and balanced out while your waiting to restock fish and just have mainly corals to worry about. Oh and go and get some more corals once your all stable so that will keep you happy!

I think you said somewhere you were going to use NoPox. With few fish and less fish waste to start with, so lower nitrates/phosphate, if you start with Nopox now on whatever dose level you need for your current readings, and then 'slowly' increase the fish bioload you might be able to get away with just NoPox to control both Nitrate and phosphate without the need for Rhowaphos etc. i.e. Don't dump a load of fish in over a short period (like what I did!) and then expect nutrient levels to stay down without the need for other things. Maybe 1 fish every 4-6 weeks or so if you can control yourself! I know, easier said than done!

Until I started getting a lot of fish stock and bioload, NoPox had it all controlled on its own for probably 8-9 months at a guess (the date will be on my build thread when I added Rhowaphos) so from what I can gather if you do a much slower increase with fish additions and let the tank/bacteria adapt, you'll hopefully not need anything else.
 

Nobbygas

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I had a Cleaner Wrasse as I think they're important in a reef tank. It seems no matter where I dived in the world, I would always see them, so in my opinion they are a vital member of the 'clean-up crew'.

I shall stop with the NOPOX for now, as the Bio load is minimal and should be handled by the Skimmer and Marine Pure block.

"Maybe 1 fish every 4-6 weeks" - What is the name of your planet? :yup: I will leave it for about six weeks though before adding any other fish.

Water changes now taking place to remove the Ruby Reef Rally medication. Activated Carbon replaced. The small Dino problem I had has disappeared.
One thing I do have, which is a bit unusual, is that I have Blue Coraline Algae growing on the rocks. I first noticed all this blue stuff on the rocks, so started to investigate what it was. I was surprised to learn that Coraline Algae can come in different colours. It usually is a purplish/reddish colour, but it can also be green or blue ! It looks quite nice !

One other point of interest is that the four fish I have left were the last fish I added to the tank. They went in the same day. Had they been treated beforehand by the LFS, so had built up some immunity to the disease? Was one of them the carrier? I suppose I'll never know, but it is strange that these four survived, and the twenty others didn't.
 
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SPR

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I live on the planet 'impatience' my friend like what you do! Just trying to control your shopping urges!! Lol.

And I meant 4-6 weeks after the 6-8 week break whilst empty.

You can only assume we're the problem came from as you won't ever know and can only trust your instincts.

Using NoPox is a fine balance as the bioload increases, and if that's what your going to use I would start using it and build up the biological filtration in all of the system including the Marine Pure block. Even if it's nominal amounts in accordance with your Nitrate levels the bacteria will start doing its stuff ready for when you explode, give in and go fish shopping! Honestly I can only say once you start using it you will get the 'feel' for what's needed in your system and when to much/to little is added, You will just know.

On the coralline algea it will take off once you get your foundation elements settled if it's to its liking. What levels have you decided to aim for? Are you going Red Sea Reef care program (accelerated growth, enhanced Colouration)? Or your own ?
 
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